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inwisti

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  • Erestel
    Greeting :) With such changes of mind-mood or inwisti their lámatyáver might also change. [Laws & Customs - Of Naming] I can see two hypothesis : 1)
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 11, 2002
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      Greeting :)

      "With such changes of 'mind-mood' or inwisti their lámatyáver might
      also change." [Laws & Customs - Of Naming]

      I can see two hypothesis :
      1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
      2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'

      _inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, and I don't see any element in
      this word which is related to mind or mood as far as I know. So I
      would tend to 2) But it is not evident to me.

      Did I miss some text which would shed a light ? or have someone any
      idea ?

      Jerome
    • pa2rick
      In Message #97, Jerome / Erestel queries a passage in Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar (X:216) that states: With such changes of mind- mood or
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 11, 2002
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        In Message #97, Jerome / "Erestel" queries a passage in "Of the Laws and
        Customs among the Eldar" (X:216) that states: "With such changes of 'mind-
        mood' or _inwisti_ their _lámatyáver_ might also change." Jerome says of
        the word _inwisti_:

        > I can see two hypothesis :
        > 1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
        > 2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'
        >
        > _inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, and I don't see any element in
        > this word which is related to mind or mood as far as I know. So I
        > would tend to 2) But it is not evident to me.

        The evidence supports hypothesis 1), actually. Here is what Carl F.
        Hostetter and I wrote regarding _inwisti_ in "_Morgoth's Ring_: A
        Linguistic Review -- Part I" (VT34:19-20):

        "_inwisti_ -- 'mind-mood', in _Laws and Customs_ a term describing one's
        tastes and interests, which might change over the course of time (216).
        The first element appears as a separate word _inno_ 'mind' [> _indo_] in
        this same passage. In an earlier draft the form is _inwaldi_, with 'mind'
        given as _ín_, _indo_ (229-30 n.16). The origin of the elements _-wisti_,
        _-waldi_ 'mood' in these forms is unclear, unless we are to assume some
        connection with _vista_ 'air as substance' (LR:399 s.v. WIS-) and _vald-_
        'blessedness, happiness' (< VALA; LT1:272). See also _indo_ 'mind'."

        By the way, I don't find the etymological connections for _-wisti_,
        _-waldi_ that Carl and I tentatively proposed in this entry to be
        particularly compelling, though at the moment I'm at a loss to think of
        any better alternatives. Perhaps someone else has some suggestions?

        -- Patrick Wynne
      • Erestel
        [Complete text of original message snipped. Please don t quote unnecessarily. Carl] Thanks for the cross-reference to VT/34. Very interesting ... And this
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 12, 2002
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          [Complete text of original message snipped. Please don't quote unnecessarily.
          Carl]

          Thanks for the cross-reference to VT/34. Very interesting ...
          And this interpretation leads me to a similar one which would involve
          hypothesis 2) as well :
          _in-_ <-> mind-mood
          _-wisti_ <-> changes (connected with WIS- > _vista_ air ?)

          Indeed we may expect that Tolkien gives a gloss like 'mind-mood' to
          explain that we are speeking not exactly of what is usually
          understood by 'mind' in english, but of something between 'mind'
          and 'mood' ... By the way the Etymologies gives _indo_ == heart,
          *mood* [HOME V/361].

          2) has my preference (órenya quetë nin ... ;)) but I am not entirely
          sure.

          Jerome
        • Arden R. Smith
          It seems to me that the most likely etymology for _inwisti_ would derive _wisti_ from some latter-day counterpart of the QL root GWIDI- (PE12:103), whence
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 12, 2002
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            It seems to me that the most likely etymology for _inwisti_ would
            derive _wisti_ from some latter-day counterpart of the QL root GWIDI-
            (PE12:103), whence Qenya _'wiste_ 'weft', as well as _'Wirilóme_
            'Gloomweaver', a name of the Great Spider. If this is the case, then
            the literal meaning of _inwisti_ might be something like
            *'mind-weaving(s)' or *'the fabric of the mind'.

            --
            *********************************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
            --Elvish proverb
            *********************************************************************
          • Beregond. Anders Stenström
            ... This argument has some force, yet 1) seems to me the natural way to read the sentence. I therefore suppose the plurality (if such it is) of _inwisti_ is a
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 15, 2002
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              Erestel wrote:

              > "With such changes of 'mind-mood' or inwisti their lámatyáver might
              > also change." [Laws & Customs - Of Naming]
              >
              > I can see two hypothesis :
              > 1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
              > 2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'
              >
              > _inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, . . . So I
              > would tend to 2)

              This argument has some force, yet 1) seems to me the natural
              way to read the sentence. I therefore suppose the plurality (if
              such it is) of _inwisti_ is a constructio ad sensum, due to the several
              moods implied by the occurrence of changes.

              As for the etymology of *_inwiste_, my simple guess is
              *_inwe_ + *_iste_, where *_inwe_ would be a relative to _indo_
              'mind', and *_iste_ the formal and semantic equivalent to Gnomish
              _ist_ "feeling, sensation. -- notion" (GL (in PE XI)).

              Meneg suilaid,

              Beregond
            • gentlebeldin
              Surprisingly, there s still another interpretation: Root ING- + abstract suffix _we_ + root IS-, first/foremost knowledge . I m aware I have to supply quite
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 23, 2002
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                Surprisingly, there's still another interpretation:

                Root ING- + abstract suffix _we_ + root IS-, "first/foremost
                knowledge".

                I'm aware I have to supply quite some evidence for my strange
                statement:

                1. _Inwe_ is a variant of the name _Ingwe_, the first high-king of
                the Eldalie (LR, Index "Inwe" and "Ingwe"). There is at least one
                other similar derivation, _Inwir_, the house of Ingwe in Lost Tales.
                2. The root IS- showed up as _ist-_ in all known derivations (Etym,
                entry IS-).

                I see one problem: the glosses "knowledge" and "(mind-)mood" seem to
                be incompatible. But that may be just us: "knowledge" needs not to be
                restricted to rationality in other cultures, or in Tolkien's
                understanding, and the fact that he used the same element _ist_
                for "feeling, sensation" in Gnomish (cf. Beregond's message 105)
                could be a third evidence in favor of my hypothesis.

                Hans
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