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Re: Rhotacism and stress (was Re: "Tolkien in Oxford")

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  • Harm J. Schelhaas
    On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list. As I had shown Beregond s [Anders Stenström s] initial post and Christie s lot
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 7, 2006
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      On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list.

      As I had shown Beregond's [Anders Stenström's] initial post and Christie's
      lot description to a Smial meeting of the Dutch Tolkien Society Unquendor,
      I've been relaying the discussion on "Tolkien in Oxford" here on Lambengolmor
      to an interested member of Unquendor. She is a professional linguist, and
      used to belong to Unquendor's working group on Elvish Linquistics, when that
      existed long before the time of VT, but dropped out of that field for a long time.

      (I myself have no solid background in linguistics, which is why I follow this
      group with keen interest, but usually do not take part myself.)

      On reading the rhotacism discussion, she at first thought people here were
      discussing whether the r in "_mondósaResse_" could have developed from an s.
      When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s ("_mondóSaresse_")
      hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that rhotacism of the first consonant in
      the second element of a compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had
      not realized that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently would
      have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

      -- Harm J. Schelhaas

      [Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so, though I would
      caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age of the compound and to
      what degree it is perceived to be a compound by the speakers of the language.
      Not that either of those are necessarily at issue in this particular example, but
      something to bear in mind lest it be regarded as a rule in all cases. CFH]

      [And while I'm at it, another gentle reminder to all members to please sign your
      posts with your real names, and to refer to other contributors by real name. I don't
      mind the use of _epessi_ and other nicknames in email adresses, but I think it
      behooves us to use real names in posts and citations. Thanks. CFH]
    • Roman Rausch
      ... An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ * daughter/child of twilight (V:385) with the
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 8, 2006
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        --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Harm J. Schelhaas"
        <harm.j.schelhaas@...> wrote:

        >When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s
        >("_mondóSaresse_") hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that
        >rhotacism of the first consonant in the second element of a
        >compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had not realized
        >that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently
        >would have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

        >[Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so,
        >though I would caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age
        >of the compound and to what degree it is perceived to be a compound
        >by the speakers of the language. [...] CFH]

        An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to
        exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ *'daughter/child of twilight' (V:385)
        with the primitive form given as _tindômiselde_, root SEL-D.

        But in the context of _Mondósaresse_ this discussion is now pointless
        anyway - the note from "Quendi & Eldar" Andreas Johansson pointed out
        in message #950 should have the most relevance here, I think.

        Roman R.
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