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Re: [Lambengolmor] Another look at Q. _mondósaresse_

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  • Jerome Colburn
    ... *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_, _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name to appear as
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 31, 2006
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      At 06:01 AM 10/28/06, Edouard Kloczko wrote:

      >The long _-ó-_ could come from o+a ; cf. Finwe's name _Ñoldóran_
      >'King of the Ñoldor' < _Ñoldo_ + _aran_ (XII:343).
      >Then _mondósaresse_ would be *_mondo-asaresse_ with Q.
      >*_asare_ "ford". But that does not satisfy me either. In Noldorin we
      >have a second element in _athrad_ < _ath-rad_ "ford". The element
      >_-rad_ < RAT- 'walk' is missing in Q *_asare_ (< ? *_athare_).
      >Furthermore in Etym. it is stated that "N prefix _ath-_ on both sides,
      >across, is probably related" which seems to imply that that "ath-"
      >was not present in Q. and there is NO word for "ford" Etym.

      *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,
      _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
      to appear as *_Mondósar_.

      Jerome Colburn
      jcolburn@...
      blog: http://www.uniquesupport.net/Lists/Jerome%20Colburn/View%20Items.htm
    • ejk@free.fr
      ... It could, but then it would be strange, all the same. Noldorin/Sindarin _athrad_ ford is not from that root. In The Silmarillion Index C. Tolkien
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 31, 2006
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        Jerome Colburn wrote :

        > *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,
        > _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
        > to appear as *_Mondósar_.

        It could, but then it would be strange, all the same. Noldorin/Sindarin _athrad_
        "ford" is not from that root. In "The Silmarillion Index" C. Tolkien wrote :
        "thar- 'athwart, across' in Sarn Athrad, Thargelion; also in Tharbad (from
        thara-pata 'crossway')." But according to Ety. _athrad_ "ford, crossing" is not
        from the root THAR-. It comes from "ath-rad".

        So the problem, as I see it, comes from the final -r in Q. *asare-/*ósare-
        "ford".

        [This is only a problem if one assumes that the etymology of _athrad_
        as given in the Etymologies -- N. _ath-_ 'on both sides, across' + _râd_
        'path, track' -- MUST have been retained unchanged thereafter. But we
        know that Tolkien constantly changed the underlying etymologies of
        many words, even while retaining the "final" form (in terms of the imagined
        history) of the word itself. The "Quenta" of 1930 has the early Noldorin
        name _Sarn-Athra_ 'the Ford of Stones' (IV:133), in which _athra_ 'ford'
        obviously does NOT end in _râd_ 'path'; this was emended to _Sarn-Athrad_
        (IV:135, n. 8), but this might just as easily represent the addition of the
        gerundial ending _-ad_. Even more pertinent to Jerome's proposed *_asare-_
        is S. _athrabeth_ 'debate, converse' (X:303) -- as Carl and I noted in VT 35
        (pg. 14), this appears to be lit. 'across-word', comparable to Eng. _dialogue_
        from Grk. _diálogos_, = _dia_ 'through, across' + _logos_ 'word'. And both
        N. _athra_ 'ford' and S. _athra-_ 'across' seem most easily explained as
        deriving from THAR- via prefixion and suppression of the sundóma:
        *_a-th'r-a. -- PHW]

        As a side dish. ;-)

        Yes, the root THAR- "across, beyond" appears in Thar-gelion and Thar-bad,
        translated "crossway" in Ety. But we are still missing a link here. From what
        source the CE etymon *thara-pata comes from. Do we know ? I was unable to find
        it.

        In LOTR-RC:15 Tharbad means in S. 'road-crossing', according to the Unfinished
        Index, still no etymon given.

        In "Quendi and Eldar" : "S aphad- ‘follow’ < *ap-pata ‘walk behind, on a track
        or path’."

        The best candidate would be root bat- "tread" from Ety. (the root pat- and kwat-
        in Ety. are quite inappropriate here, aren't' they ?). The language of *ap-pata
        is not stated but could be Common Telerin, not CE, and showing an assimilation
        of b to p. The CE verb *bat- would be a simple formation from the root bat- and
        (?)maybe used in composition only in CT.

        [Again, the bases and etymologies in the Etym. are neither exhaustive nor
        immutable. The root PATA appears in QL with the derivative _pata-_ 'rap, tap
        (of feet), while GL gives the clearly cognate verb _padra-_ 'walk'. The Noldorin
        cognate _pad-_ appears in _Padathir_ 'Trotter (VI:194). On this basis there
        seems little reason to doubt that *_ap-pata_ displays PQ or CE *_pata-_
        'walk', and that this is the second element in _Tharbad_. -- PHW]

        Namárië,

        Edouard Kloczko
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