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Re: "Tolkien in Oxford"

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  • Roman Rausch
    ... I believe that _Astaldo_ should be rather related to STÁLAG- with primitive _stalga_ stalwart, steady, firm , N _thalion_ hero, dauntless man (V:388)
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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      --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Derdzinski"
      <galadhorn@...> wrote:

      >What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas's title: _Astaldo_
      >'The Valiant'?

      I believe that _Astaldo_ should be rather related to STÁLAG- with
      primitive _stalga_ 'stalwart, steady, firm', N _thalion_ 'hero,
      dauntless man' (V:388) and so on. Thus: _*a-stal-do_ with _-do_ as
      e.g. in _Hildor_ 'followers' from KHILI 'follow' (XI:387).

      (Analyzing the name as _*a-sta-ldo_ one runs into several problems - a
      root *(A)SAT(A)- 'valiant' is needed, but not attested; just as the
      personal ending _-ldo_, if I do not overlook anything.)

      >In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_
      >'Oxford' is derived from the stem SAR-. Look at the tengwa _silmë_
      >(and not _thúlë_). It can have the meaning 'hard' (as in the OED
      >definition of HARD (n.): 'Hard or firm ground').

      In the "_Namárie_" calligraphy in _The Road Goes Ever On_ we encounter
      _sindanóriello_ and _hísie_, both written with a _silme_, although
      deriving from THIN- (V:392) and KHITH- 'mist, fog' (V:364).

      And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
      know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
      vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
      deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

      In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
      after _-s-_.

      The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
      have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

      Besides, the connection beween _sar-_ *'hard ground' and 'ford'
      appears somewhat vague to me, while THAR- is directly attested in
      another name of a ford.

      [The connection with SAR-, if there is one, would I think be to the
      various derivatives connoting or related to stones or stoniness, fords
      often being made of gravel or other agglomerated stones. Note
      S. _Sarn-athrad_ 'Stony-ford' (LR:172, RC:163). CFH]

      Roman Rausch
    • Florian Dombach
      Just a minor correction: For me the first word of the Elvish greeting (inscribed by Tolkien in the copy of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ being auctioned) reads
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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        Just a minor correction:

        For me the first word of the Elvish greeting (inscribed by Tolkien in
        the copy of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ being auctioned) reads neither
        "_elen_" nor "_elem_", as stated on the DTS site, but in fact "_elme_",
        but I will leave it to the Quenya experts to judge if this may have been
        Tolkien's intention or just a double mistake.

        Regards,
        Florian Dombach

        [You are quite correct that the first word is actually written as
        "_elme_". I have no doubt that this was a mistake on Tolkien's
        part, not intentional. As I mentioned previously, Tolkien was
        making this inscription for the cameras, and not at his leisure,
        accounting for the missed and subsequently inserted "_lúmenna_"
        and, no doubt, this misspelling as well. CFH]
      • Beregond. Anders Stenstr�
        ... I read the first line and a half in this way: Here {or Above ?} are some specimens. A is a transliteration of English. But this happens [Aha! I think
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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          Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

          > The note in green at the bottom of the sheet appears to read:
          >
          > "[?Shown over] some explanations. A is a transliteration of English,
          > [?that thus] happens not to be very decorative [?since lacking] the [?
          > <a-_tehta_> = a]. B is a translation into Elvish (Quenya)"

          I read the first line and a half in this way:

          "Here {or "Above"?} are some specimens. A is a transliteration
          of English. But this happens "

          [Aha! I think you've go it. CFH]

          With some luck, the reproduction in the printed catalogue is
          large enough to allow a more certain reading.

          Suilad,

          Beregond
        • F.S.
          It has long appeared to me that as printed in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ (XII:295-320), the essay Of Dwarves and Men is strangely circular in disposition.
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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            It has long appeared to me that as printed in _The
            Peoples of Middle-earth_ (XII:295-320), the essay 'Of
            Dwarves and Men' is strangely circular in disposition.
            Christopher Tolkien notes that it 'takes up in the
            middle of a sentence in a passage discussing knowledge
            of the Common Speech' -- more specifically, discussing
            the Common Speech as a means for interspecial
            communication -- and the text ends (without a full
            stop) in the middle of a discussion of the Common
            Speech; more specifically, with a sentence on the
            Common Speech as a means for interspecial
            communication.

            Furthermore, Christopher Tolkien points to a break in
            the essay where, after three and a half pages of
            manuscript, the typescript draft begins (XII:320 n.
            9). Naturally one wonders whether the manuscript pages
            were, in fact, originally the last pages of a draft
            version of the essay, moved to the beginning at some
            later time. (There could be a simple explanation to
            why this was done. Having coverered the topics of the
            Atani and their languages, the Drúedain, the
            Halflings, Faramir's 'Middle Men', and the lingua
            franca, Tolkien may have found himself returning to
            the Dwarves: 'the Dwarves however were a special
            case'. If this was so, then he may have decided that
            the sections on the Dwarves were better kept together
            and so moved the last pages. This would also explain
            why no subtitle 'I' appears [cf. XII:324 n. 34], if
            the essay having been so arranged never was retyped.)

            However, when queried about the original documents
            Christopher Tolkien kindly responded that the first
            typescript words (XII:298 line 2, 'Only occasionally
            ...') follow in the same line of text, so to speak, as
            the last manuscript words 'in the Fëanorian Script' in
            such a way as to show very clearly that the author
            simply laid down his pen at that point and turned to
            his typewriter.

            Nevertheless, I wonder whether more could be said on
            the matter. If the three and a half manuscript pages
            -- except, perhaps, for the last (few) sentence(s)? --
            originally comprised the end of the text, then the
            essay would have opened with a discussion of the use
            of runes in the Book of Mazarbul and on Balin's Tomb
            -- and this would agree with Tolkien's note on the
            covering page that the essay arose 'from consideration
            of the Book of Mazarbul' (XII:295).

            In my opinion the typescript part on Dwarven runes
            (XII:298-301), where several phrases were later struck
            out and corrected, definitely has the appearance of a
            rough draft, while the section that follows
            ('Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men') seems
            more finished. One deleted note from the first part
            was taken up almost verbatim in the latter (see
            XII:300 n. 21 and cf. the last paragraph on XII:302).
            Perhaps the essay was pieced together of several
            separate texts, some of them rewritten from (partly)
            lost drafts, all written more or less at the same
            time?

            There is another curious fact about the essay as
            printed. After the section on the relations of the
            Longbeards and Men, ending with a paragraph on what
            came to pass in the Second Age (XII:304-5), there
            follows a paragraph on change in the language of the
            Eldar in Middle-earth (as opposed to that of the Eldar
            in Valinor), as seen by Elvish loremasters. This
            paragraph seems to have virtually nothing to do with
            what precedes it, and it is followed by a clear break
            (where later the subtitle 'The Atani and their
            Languages' was pencilled in). Could it be that the
            part on the Atani and their languages was once
            preceded by a text on the Elves and their languages,
            i.e. on Quenya and Sindarin, and that the stray
            paragraph is a remnant of this text? In any case I
            think it possible that Tolkien bundled together a text
            that he had written on the Atani with one or more
            texts on the Longbeard Dwarves to form an essay 'Of
            Dwarves and Men', but perhaps we will never know
            exactly which the constituent parts originally were.

            I note with interest though that the upcoming _J.R.R.
            Tolkien Companion and Guide_ by Hammond & Scull
            contains a section entitled 'Of Dwarves and Men'
            (http://bcn.net/~whammond/Guide topic list.doc).
            Perhaps we will find some answers there?

            /Fredrik Ström
          • Jerome Colburn
            ... The wild thought has occurred to me to read it as *_ar-cas+ta-r_: an agent noun in _-r_ to a verb *_casta-_ (in turn formed by adding causative _-ta_ to
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 1, 2006
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              At 09:10 AM 10/27/06, Roman Rausch wrote:

              >_arcastar_ 'Tolkien'
              >
              >Tolkien's name is an anglicization of _Tollkiehn_ , German _tollkühn_
              >'foolhardy, reckless, desperately brave' (compare Letter no.165),
              >containing _toll_ 'insane, mad, wild' and _kühn_ 'brave'. A more or
              >less literal translation into English Tolkien himself also made, was
              >'Rashbold' (IX:151).
              >
              >I would analyze the Quenya word as _*arca-star_.

              The wild thought has occurred to me to read it as *_ar-cas+ta-r_: an agent
              noun in _-r_ to a verb *_casta-_ (in turn formed by adding causative _-ta_
              to the root KAS- "head") with modifying prefix _ar-_.

              [Wild it may be, but I had a similar thought. Consider the term "headstrong",
              partly synonymous with "foolhardy", though milder. CFH]

              In _Telcontar_ we have an instance of a surname formed by the _-r_ suffix
              added to a verb stem formed with the _-ta_ suffix added to a root meaning a
              body part!

              The meaning would seem to be someone who puts his head outside or beside
              (the place where it should be), exposing it to risk.

              The question of the meaning of the name _Castamir_ also arises.

              Jerome Colburn
              jcolburn@...
              blog: http://www.uniquesupport.net/Lists/Jerome%20Colburn/View%20Items.htm
            • Andreas Johansson
              ... In Note 24 to Quendi and Eldar, we learn that [m]edial z
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 1, 2006
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                Quoting Roman Rausch <aranwe@...>:

                > And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
                > know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
                > vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
                > deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.
                >
                > In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
                > after _-s-_.
                >
                > The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
                > have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

                In Note 24 to Quendi and Eldar, we learn that "[m]edial z < s had became r in
                the Ñoldorin dialect of Q except when an adjacent syllable, or (as here) the
                same syllable, already contained an r", the context being why Dwarvish _Khazâd_
                was adapted to Quenya as _Kasar_ rather than **_Karar_. Thus from a phonological
                point of view, there need not be any objection to assuming the presence of SAR.

                Andreas
              • hisilome
                ... Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_ preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the pronunciation rules as for example
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 4, 2006
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                  --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
                  > know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
                  > vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
                  > deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

                  Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                  preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the pronunciation
                  rules as for example given in the Appendices of _LotR_, although the
                  example given there involves double _n_)?

                  Or is the passage in VT44:20 to be interpreted to say that rhotacism
                  did not occur when _s_ was followed by a stressed vowel, _regardless in
                  which syllable_ (as long as it comes after the _s_)? From the example
                  given, though, I get the impression that it has to follow the _s_
                  _immediately_ for the rule (of no change from _s_ to _r_) to apply:
                  _ósAnwe_.

                  [That's my impression as well. CFH]

                  David
                • Pavel Iosad
                  Hello, ... This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that we could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress (witness
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                    Hello,

                    > Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                    > preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the
                    > pronunciation rules as for example given in the Appendices of
                    >_LotR_, although the example given there involves double _n_)?

                    This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that we
                    could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress
                    (witness similar developments in Germanic due to Werner's law with
                    rhotacised and non-rhotacised forms coinhabiting the same paradigm, as
                    in OIcel _kjósa_, participle _kørinn_ 'to choose'). Indeed the very
                    word _ósanwe_ could be expected to exhibit this alternation, of
                    course. However, since no examples are provided by Tolkien, it is
                    rather pointless to speculate whether the paradigm would be levelled
                    to follow the nominative or remain true to the historical phonology;
                    what we can do is only note that something like that could be
                    possible.

                    --Pavel
                  • Beregond. Anders Stenström
                    ... The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible. The words above the second line of tengwar are: In Elvish language & script The note in green
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                      I wrote:

                      > With some luck, the reproduction in the printed catalogue is
                      > large enough to allow a more certain reading.

                      The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible. The
                      words above the second line of tengwar are:

                      "In Elvish language
                      & script"

                      The note in green reads:

                      "Here are some specimens. A is a transliteration
                      of English. But this happens not to be very decorative
                      and lacks the XX <a-tehta> = a. B is a translation
                      into Elvish (Quenya)"

                      XX is a deleted "de", apparently the start of a
                      repetitious "decorative". The a-tehta is underlined.

                      (For the final note, in black, see Carl's reading
                      earlier in this thread.)

                      Suilad,

                      Beregond, Anders Stenstr�m
                    • j_mach_wust
                      Beregond/Anders Stenström wrote: ... ... May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of Mondósaresse ? On the scan available at
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                        Beregond/Anders Stenström wrote:
                        ...
                        > The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible.
                        ...

                        May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of
                        'Mondósaresse'? On the scan available at Christie's, I can make out
                        that there is the tengwa 'esse', but I cannot see whether there is an
                        acute above, and--if there is an acute--whether the acute is below the
                        upper stroke of esse or above.

                        grüess
                        j. 'mach' wust
                      • hisilome
                        ... My original objection was mainly to Roman s statement that in _Mondósaresse_ the _s_ is followed by the stressed vowel, which is patently false (if one
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                          --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel Iosad" <edricson@...>
                          wrote:

                          > > Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                          > > preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the
                          > > pronunciation rules as for example given in the Appendices of
                          > >_LotR_, although the example given there involves double _n_)?
                          >
                          >This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that
                          >we could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress
                          >(witness similar developments in Germanic due to Werner's law with
                          >rhotacised and non-rhotacised forms coinhabiting the same paradigm,
                          >as in OIcel _kjósa_, participle _kørinn_ 'to choose'). Indeed the
                          >very word _ósanwe_ could be expected to exhibit this alternation, of
                          > course. However, since no examples are provided by Tolkien, it is
                          > rather pointless to speculate whether the paradigm would be levelled
                          > to follow the nominative or remain true to the historical phonology;
                          > what we can do is only note that something like that could be
                          > possible.

                          My original objection was mainly to Roman's statement that in
                          _Mondósaresse_ the _s_ is followed by the stressed vowel, which is
                          patently false (if one agrees that it should be followed
                          _immediately_ by the stressed vowel, just as in Verner's Law it is
                          the stress on the _immediately_ _preceding_ vowel that prevented
                          voiceless fricatives from becoming voiced ones [and, by extension,
                          _s_ from becoming _r_ via _z_]). Thus the accent of the word should
                          probably not be seen here as a reason why rhotacism did not occur.

                          This is why I do not fully agree with your argument: yes, one might
                          assume of _ósanwe_ that, for example, the locative could be
                          _óranwesse_ ("true to historical phonology", and similar to your Old
                          Icelandic example), while it might just as well be _ósanwesse_
                          (analogical leveling).

                          I just don't see how this is relevant for _Mondósaresse_ and its
                          assumed nominative, since the stress is never in the pertinent
                          syllable anyway. All one can say is that if the word's second element
                          is indeed derived from SAR-, rhotacism "should" probably have
                          occurred (in both the nominative and the locative), but for some
                          reason it didn't. Of course it is also quite possible, as Roman says,
                          that SAR- is not involved at all.

                          David
                        • "Beregond. Anders Stenström"
                          ... There is an acute below the ascender of the esse. Suilad, Beregond
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                            j. 'mach' wust wrote:

                            > May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of
                            > 'Mondósaresse'? On the scan available at Christie's, I can make out
                            > that there is the tengwa 'esse', but I cannot see whether there is an
                            > acute above, and--if there is an acute--whether the acute is below the
                            > upper stroke of esse or above.

                            There is an 'acute' below the ascender of the esse.

                            Suilad,

                            Beregond
                          • Harm J. Schelhaas
                            On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list. As I had shown Beregond s [Anders Stenström s] initial post and Christie s lot
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 7, 2006
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                              On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list.

                              As I had shown Beregond's [Anders Stenström's] initial post and Christie's
                              lot description to a Smial meeting of the Dutch Tolkien Society Unquendor,
                              I've been relaying the discussion on "Tolkien in Oxford" here on Lambengolmor
                              to an interested member of Unquendor. She is a professional linguist, and
                              used to belong to Unquendor's working group on Elvish Linquistics, when that
                              existed long before the time of VT, but dropped out of that field for a long time.

                              (I myself have no solid background in linguistics, which is why I follow this
                              group with keen interest, but usually do not take part myself.)

                              On reading the rhotacism discussion, she at first thought people here were
                              discussing whether the r in "_mondósaResse_" could have developed from an s.
                              When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s ("_mondóSaresse_")
                              hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that rhotacism of the first consonant in
                              the second element of a compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had
                              not realized that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently would
                              have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

                              -- Harm J. Schelhaas

                              [Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so, though I would
                              caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age of the compound and to
                              what degree it is perceived to be a compound by the speakers of the language.
                              Not that either of those are necessarily at issue in this particular example, but
                              something to bear in mind lest it be regarded as a rule in all cases. CFH]

                              [And while I'm at it, another gentle reminder to all members to please sign your
                              posts with your real names, and to refer to other contributors by real name. I don't
                              mind the use of _epessi_ and other nicknames in email adresses, but I think it
                              behooves us to use real names in posts and citations. Thanks. CFH]
                            • Roman Rausch
                              ... An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ * daughter/child of twilight (V:385) with the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 8, 2006
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                                --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Harm J. Schelhaas"
                                <harm.j.schelhaas@...> wrote:

                                >When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s
                                >("_mondóSaresse_") hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that
                                >rhotacism of the first consonant in the second element of a
                                >compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had not realized
                                >that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently
                                >would have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

                                >[Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so,
                                >though I would caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age
                                >of the compound and to what degree it is perceived to be a compound
                                >by the speakers of the language. [...] CFH]

                                An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to
                                exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ *'daughter/child of twilight' (V:385)
                                with the primitive form given as _tindômiselde_, root SEL-D.

                                But in the context of _Mondósaresse_ this discussion is now pointless
                                anyway - the note from "Quendi & Eldar" Andreas Johansson pointed out
                                in message #950 should have the most relevance here, I think.

                                Roman R.
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