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Another look at Q. _mondósaresse_

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  • laurifindil
    ... _mundo_ (apparently in Quenya), so that one can identify _mondo_ ox here. _Mundo_ can hardly be anything but Quenya. Its CE etymon could be *_mundô_ or
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 28, 2006
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      Roman Rausch wrote:

      >In Letter no.342 Tolkien gives "the elvish word for 'bull'" as
      _mundo_ (apparently in Quenya), so that one can identify
      _mondo_ 'ox' here.

      _Mundo_ can hardly be anything but Quenya. Its CE etymon could
      be *_mundô_ or better *_mundu_ with a short "male" _-u_ element.
      Still the stem is not stated in the published corpus : could be
      ?MUD- or ?MUN-.

      [Etym. gives MBUD- 'project', > *_mbundu_ > Q. _mundo_ 'snout,
      nose, cape'; perhaps _mundo_ 'bull' is a later conception of this
      root and its derivatives. Note that Etym. _mundo_ has 'cape' as
      one of its meanings -- a much later word for 'cape (of land)' is
      Q. _nortil_ (VT47:28), in which the final element is < TIL 'point',
      whence also Q. _tilde_ 'spike, horn' and _Tilion_ 'the Horned'
      (Etym. s.v. TIL-). So perhaps Tolkien later imagined MBUD-
      'project' > Q. _mundo_ 'animal with (projecting) horns, a bull'?
      It should also be noted that GL has _mû_ 'ox', _mûs_ 'cow' etc.,
      clearly cognate with Gn. _mul-, mum_ 'low, bellow'; if a root
      *MU- 'low, bellow' survived, then perhaps later Q. _mundo_ is
      related, maybe *'bellower' with agentive ending _-ndo_ as in
      _colindo_ 'bearer' (LR:953), _runando_ 'redeemer' (VT44:17),
      etc. -- PHW]

      The change of internal u > o to show sex (or rather the lack of it)
      bull > ox, is quite unexplained, or is it ?

      [I would think that despite the similarity, *_mondo_ 'ox' must be
      etymologically distinct from _mundo_ 'bull', though undoubtedly
      the form of one suggested the other. The Etymologies gives the
      base MÔ- with derivatives Q. _mól_ 'slave, thrall' and _móta-_
      'labour, toil', so perhaps *_mondo_ 'ox' is from MÔ- + agentive
      _-ndo_, with the sense 'laborer, draught-animal'? -- PHW]

      The long _-ó-_ could come from o+a ; cf. Finwe's name _Ñoldóran_
      'King of the Ñoldor' < _Ñoldo_ + _aran_ (XII:343).
      Then _mondósaresse_ would be *_mondo-asaresse_ with Q.
      *_asare_ "ford". But that does not satisfy me either. In Noldorin we
      have a second element in _athrad_ < _ath-rad_ "ford". The element
      _-rad_ < RAT- 'walk' is missing in Q *_asare_ (< ? *_athare_).
      Furthermore in Etym. it is stated that "N prefix _ath-_ on both sides,
      across, is probably related" which seems to imply that that "ath-"
      was not present in Q. and there is NO word for "ford" Etym.

      And making it _ó-atha-r(e)_, is not very logical either. _Ath-_ is
      a prefix and two prefixes are not added to make a word in our
      corpus of Q. We need a meaningful "stem" here. And how to
      account for the ending -r(e) then anyway ?

      More questions than answers, as usual... ;-)

      Namárië,

      Edouard Kloczko
    • Jerome Colburn
      ... *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_, _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name to appear as
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 31, 2006
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        At 06:01 AM 10/28/06, Edouard Kloczko wrote:

        >The long _-ó-_ could come from o+a ; cf. Finwe's name _Ñoldóran_
        >'King of the Ñoldor' < _Ñoldo_ + _aran_ (XII:343).
        >Then _mondósaresse_ would be *_mondo-asaresse_ with Q.
        >*_asare_ "ford". But that does not satisfy me either. In Noldorin we
        >have a second element in _athrad_ < _ath-rad_ "ford". The element
        >_-rad_ < RAT- 'walk' is missing in Q *_asare_ (< ? *_athare_).
        >Furthermore in Etym. it is stated that "N prefix _ath-_ on both sides,
        >across, is probably related" which seems to imply that that "ath-"
        >was not present in Q. and there is NO word for "ford" Etym.

        *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,
        _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
        to appear as *_Mondósar_.

        Jerome Colburn
        jcolburn@...
        blog: http://www.uniquesupport.net/Lists/Jerome%20Colburn/View%20Items.htm
      • ejk@free.fr
        ... It could, but then it would be strange, all the same. Noldorin/Sindarin _athrad_ ford is not from that root. In The Silmarillion Index C. Tolkien
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 31, 2006
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          Jerome Colburn wrote :

          > *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,
          > _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
          > to appear as *_Mondósar_.

          It could, but then it would be strange, all the same. Noldorin/Sindarin _athrad_
          "ford" is not from that root. In "The Silmarillion Index" C. Tolkien wrote :
          "thar- 'athwart, across' in Sarn Athrad, Thargelion; also in Tharbad (from
          thara-pata 'crossway')." But according to Ety. _athrad_ "ford, crossing" is not
          from the root THAR-. It comes from "ath-rad".

          So the problem, as I see it, comes from the final -r in Q. *asare-/*ósare-
          "ford".

          [This is only a problem if one assumes that the etymology of _athrad_
          as given in the Etymologies -- N. _ath-_ 'on both sides, across' + _râd_
          'path, track' -- MUST have been retained unchanged thereafter. But we
          know that Tolkien constantly changed the underlying etymologies of
          many words, even while retaining the "final" form (in terms of the imagined
          history) of the word itself. The "Quenta" of 1930 has the early Noldorin
          name _Sarn-Athra_ 'the Ford of Stones' (IV:133), in which _athra_ 'ford'
          obviously does NOT end in _râd_ 'path'; this was emended to _Sarn-Athrad_
          (IV:135, n. 8), but this might just as easily represent the addition of the
          gerundial ending _-ad_. Even more pertinent to Jerome's proposed *_asare-_
          is S. _athrabeth_ 'debate, converse' (X:303) -- as Carl and I noted in VT 35
          (pg. 14), this appears to be lit. 'across-word', comparable to Eng. _dialogue_
          from Grk. _diálogos_, = _dia_ 'through, across' + _logos_ 'word'. And both
          N. _athra_ 'ford' and S. _athra-_ 'across' seem most easily explained as
          deriving from THAR- via prefixion and suppression of the sundóma:
          *_a-th'r-a. -- PHW]

          As a side dish. ;-)

          Yes, the root THAR- "across, beyond" appears in Thar-gelion and Thar-bad,
          translated "crossway" in Ety. But we are still missing a link here. From what
          source the CE etymon *thara-pata comes from. Do we know ? I was unable to find
          it.

          In LOTR-RC:15 Tharbad means in S. 'road-crossing', according to the Unfinished
          Index, still no etymon given.

          In "Quendi and Eldar" : "S aphad- ‘follow’ < *ap-pata ‘walk behind, on a track
          or path’."

          The best candidate would be root bat- "tread" from Ety. (the root pat- and kwat-
          in Ety. are quite inappropriate here, aren't' they ?). The language of *ap-pata
          is not stated but could be Common Telerin, not CE, and showing an assimilation
          of b to p. The CE verb *bat- would be a simple formation from the root bat- and
          (?)maybe used in composition only in CT.

          [Again, the bases and etymologies in the Etym. are neither exhaustive nor
          immutable. The root PATA appears in QL with the derivative _pata-_ 'rap, tap
          (of feet), while GL gives the clearly cognate verb _padra-_ 'walk'. The Noldorin
          cognate _pad-_ appears in _Padathir_ 'Trotter (VI:194). On this basis there
          seems little reason to doubt that *_ap-pata_ displays PQ or CE *_pata-_
          'walk', and that this is the second element in _Tharbad_. -- PHW]

          Namárië,

          Edouard Kloczko
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