Another look at Q. _mondósaresse_
- Roman Rausch wrote:
>In Letter no.342 Tolkien gives "the elvish word for 'bull'" as_mundo_ (apparently in Quenya), so that one can identify
_mondo_ 'ox' here.
_Mundo_ can hardly be anything but Quenya. Its CE etymon could
be *_mundô_ or better *_mundu_ with a short "male" _-u_ element.
Still the stem is not stated in the published corpus : could be
?MUD- or ?MUN-.
[Etym. gives MBUD- 'project', > *_mbundu_ > Q. _mundo_ 'snout,
nose, cape'; perhaps _mundo_ 'bull' is a later conception of this
root and its derivatives. Note that Etym. _mundo_ has 'cape' as
one of its meanings -- a much later word for 'cape (of land)' is
Q. _nortil_ (VT47:28), in which the final element is < TIL 'point',
whence also Q. _tilde_ 'spike, horn' and _Tilion_ 'the Horned'
(Etym. s.v. TIL-). So perhaps Tolkien later imagined MBUD-
'project' > Q. _mundo_ 'animal with (projecting) horns, a bull'?
It should also be noted that GL has _mû_ 'ox', _mûs_ 'cow' etc.,
clearly cognate with Gn. _mul-, mum_ 'low, bellow'; if a root
*MU- 'low, bellow' survived, then perhaps later Q. _mundo_ is
related, maybe *'bellower' with agentive ending _-ndo_ as in
_colindo_ 'bearer' (LR:953), _runando_ 'redeemer' (VT44:17),
etc. -- PHW]
The change of internal u > o to show sex (or rather the lack of it)
bull > ox, is quite unexplained, or is it ?
[I would think that despite the similarity, *_mondo_ 'ox' must be
etymologically distinct from _mundo_ 'bull', though undoubtedly
the form of one suggested the other. The Etymologies gives the
base MÔ- with derivatives Q. _mól_ 'slave, thrall' and _móta-_
'labour, toil', so perhaps *_mondo_ 'ox' is from MÔ- + agentive
_-ndo_, with the sense 'laborer, draught-animal'? -- PHW]
The long _-ó-_ could come from o+a ; cf. Finwe's name _Ñoldóran_
'King of the Ñoldor' < _Ñoldo_ + _aran_ (XII:343).
Then _mondósaresse_ would be *_mondo-asaresse_ with Q.
*_asare_ "ford". But that does not satisfy me either. In Noldorin we
have a second element in _athrad_ < _ath-rad_ "ford". The element
_-rad_ < RAT- 'walk' is missing in Q *_asare_ (< ? *_athare_).
Furthermore in Etym. it is stated that "N prefix _ath-_ on both sides,
across, is probably related" which seems to imply that that "ath-"
was not present in Q. and there is NO word for "ford" Etym.
And making it _ó-atha-r(e)_, is not very logical either. _Ath-_ is
a prefix and two prefixes are not added to make a word in our
corpus of Q. We need a meaningful "stem" here. And how to
account for the ending -r(e) then anyway ?
More questions than answers, as usual... ;-)
- At 06:01 AM 10/28/06, Edouard Kloczko wrote:
>The long _-ó-_ could come from o+a ; cf. Finwe's name _Ñoldóran_*_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,
>'King of the Ñoldor' < _Ñoldo_ + _aran_ (XII:343).
>Then _mondósaresse_ would be *_mondo-asaresse_ with Q.
>*_asare_ "ford". But that does not satisfy me either. In Noldorin we
>have a second element in _athrad_ < _ath-rad_ "ford". The element
>_-rad_ < RAT- 'walk' is missing in Q *_asare_ (< ? *_athare_).
>Furthermore in Etym. it is stated that "N prefix _ath-_ on both sides,
>across, is probably related" which seems to imply that that "ath-"
>was not present in Q. and there is NO word for "ford" Etym.
_isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
to appear as *_Mondósar_.
- Jerome Colburn wrote :
> *_asare-_ could be from THAR- with prefixed root vowel as in _anar_,It could, but then it would be strange, all the same. Noldorin/Sindarin _athrad_
> _isil_, _Aman_. In the absence of a case ending one would expect the name
> to appear as *_Mondósar_.
"ford" is not from that root. In "The Silmarillion Index" C. Tolkien wrote :
"thar- 'athwart, across' in Sarn Athrad, Thargelion; also in Tharbad (from
thara-pata 'crossway')." But according to Ety. _athrad_ "ford, crossing" is not
from the root THAR-. It comes from "ath-rad".
So the problem, as I see it, comes from the final -r in Q. *asare-/*ósare-
[This is only a problem if one assumes that the etymology of _athrad_
as given in the Etymologies -- N. _ath-_ 'on both sides, across' + _râd_
'path, track' -- MUST have been retained unchanged thereafter. But we
know that Tolkien constantly changed the underlying etymologies of
many words, even while retaining the "final" form (in terms of the imagined
history) of the word itself. The "Quenta" of 1930 has the early Noldorin
name _Sarn-Athra_ 'the Ford of Stones' (IV:133), in which _athra_ 'ford'
obviously does NOT end in _râd_ 'path'; this was emended to _Sarn-Athrad_
(IV:135, n. 8), but this might just as easily represent the addition of the
gerundial ending _-ad_. Even more pertinent to Jerome's proposed *_asare-_
is S. _athrabeth_ 'debate, converse' (X:303) -- as Carl and I noted in VT 35
(pg. 14), this appears to be lit. 'across-word', comparable to Eng. _dialogue_
from Grk. _diálogos_, = _dia_ 'through, across' + _logos_ 'word'. And both
N. _athra_ 'ford' and S. _athra-_ 'across' seem most easily explained as
deriving from THAR- via prefixion and suppression of the sundóma:
*_a-th'r-a. -- PHW]
As a side dish. ;-)
Yes, the root THAR- "across, beyond" appears in Thar-gelion and Thar-bad,
translated "crossway" in Ety. But we are still missing a link here. From what
source the CE etymon *thara-pata comes from. Do we know ? I was unable to find
In LOTR-RC:15 Tharbad means in S. 'road-crossing', according to the Unfinished
Index, still no etymon given.
In "Quendi and Eldar" : "S aphad- follow < *ap-pata walk behind, on a track
The best candidate would be root bat- "tread" from Ety. (the root pat- and kwat-
in Ety. are quite inappropriate here, aren't' they ?). The language of *ap-pata
is not stated but could be Common Telerin, not CE, and showing an assimilation
of b to p. The CE verb *bat- would be a simple formation from the root bat- and
(?)maybe used in composition only in CT.
[Again, the bases and etymologies in the Etym. are neither exhaustive nor
immutable. The root PATA appears in QL with the derivative _pata-_ 'rap, tap
(of feet), while GL gives the clearly cognate verb _padra-_ 'walk'. The Noldorin
cognate _pad-_ appears in _Padathir_ 'Trotter (VI:194). On this basis there
seems little reason to doubt that *_ap-pata_ displays PQ or CE *_pata-_
'walk', and that this is the second element in _Tharbad_. -- PHW]