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Re: [Lambengolmor] "Tolkien in Oxford"

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... That should read placed _above_ the consonant , of course; sorry for the typo. Carl
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 27, 2006
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      On Oct 27, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

      > The final note, in black, reads:
      >
      > "NB the vowel signs i, e, a, o, u <corresponding _tehta_ above each
      > vowel> are placed _after_ the consonant which they follow in speech."

      That should read "placed _above_ the consonant", of course; sorry for
      the typo.

      Carl
    • Richard Derdzinski
      ... What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas s title: _Astaldo_ The Valiant ? In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_ Oxford
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 27, 2006
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        --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote, regarding _arcastar_ 'Tolkien':

        > The latter element _-star_ seems to be related to STAR- 'stiff'
        > (V:388), with _st_ preserved medially.

        What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas's title: _Astaldo_
        'The Valiant'?

        In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_
        'Oxford' is derived from the stem SAR-. Look at the tengwa _silmë_
        (and not _thúlë_). It can have the meaning 'hard' (as in the OED
        definition of HARD (n.): 'Hard or firm ground').

        Cheers,

        Richard Derdzinski
      • Roman Rausch
        ... I believe that _Astaldo_ should be rather related to STÁLAG- with primitive _stalga_ stalwart, steady, firm , N _thalion_ hero, dauntless man (V:388)
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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          --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Derdzinski"
          <galadhorn@...> wrote:

          >What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas's title: _Astaldo_
          >'The Valiant'?

          I believe that _Astaldo_ should be rather related to STÁLAG- with
          primitive _stalga_ 'stalwart, steady, firm', N _thalion_ 'hero,
          dauntless man' (V:388) and so on. Thus: _*a-stal-do_ with _-do_ as
          e.g. in _Hildor_ 'followers' from KHILI 'follow' (XI:387).

          (Analyzing the name as _*a-sta-ldo_ one runs into several problems - a
          root *(A)SAT(A)- 'valiant' is needed, but not attested; just as the
          personal ending _-ldo_, if I do not overlook anything.)

          >In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_
          >'Oxford' is derived from the stem SAR-. Look at the tengwa _silmë_
          >(and not _thúlë_). It can have the meaning 'hard' (as in the OED
          >definition of HARD (n.): 'Hard or firm ground').

          In the "_Namárie_" calligraphy in _The Road Goes Ever On_ we encounter
          _sindanóriello_ and _hísie_, both written with a _silme_, although
          deriving from THIN- (V:392) and KHITH- 'mist, fog' (V:364).

          And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
          know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
          vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
          deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

          In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
          after _-s-_.

          The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
          have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

          Besides, the connection beween _sar-_ *'hard ground' and 'ford'
          appears somewhat vague to me, while THAR- is directly attested in
          another name of a ford.

          [The connection with SAR-, if there is one, would I think be to the
          various derivatives connoting or related to stones or stoniness, fords
          often being made of gravel or other agglomerated stones. Note
          S. _Sarn-athrad_ 'Stony-ford' (LR:172, RC:163). CFH]

          Roman Rausch
        • Florian Dombach
          Just a minor correction: For me the first word of the Elvish greeting (inscribed by Tolkien in the copy of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ being auctioned) reads
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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            Just a minor correction:

            For me the first word of the Elvish greeting (inscribed by Tolkien in
            the copy of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ being auctioned) reads neither
            "_elen_" nor "_elem_", as stated on the DTS site, but in fact "_elme_",
            but I will leave it to the Quenya experts to judge if this may have been
            Tolkien's intention or just a double mistake.

            Regards,
            Florian Dombach

            [You are quite correct that the first word is actually written as
            "_elme_". I have no doubt that this was a mistake on Tolkien's
            part, not intentional. As I mentioned previously, Tolkien was
            making this inscription for the cameras, and not at his leisure,
            accounting for the missed and subsequently inserted "_lúmenna_"
            and, no doubt, this misspelling as well. CFH]
          • Beregond. Anders Stenstr�m
            ... I read the first line and a half in this way: Here {or Above ?} are some specimens. A is a transliteration of English. But this happens [Aha! I think
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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              Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

              > The note in green at the bottom of the sheet appears to read:
              >
              > "[?Shown over] some explanations. A is a transliteration of English,
              > [?that thus] happens not to be very decorative [?since lacking] the [?
              > <a-_tehta_> = a]. B is a translation into Elvish (Quenya)"

              I read the first line and a half in this way:

              "Here {or "Above"?} are some specimens. A is a transliteration
              of English. But this happens "

              [Aha! I think you've go it. CFH]

              With some luck, the reproduction in the printed catalogue is
              large enough to allow a more certain reading.

              Suilad,

              Beregond
            • F.S.
              It has long appeared to me that as printed in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ (XII:295-320), the essay Of Dwarves and Men is strangely circular in disposition.
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
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                It has long appeared to me that as printed in _The
                Peoples of Middle-earth_ (XII:295-320), the essay 'Of
                Dwarves and Men' is strangely circular in disposition.
                Christopher Tolkien notes that it 'takes up in the
                middle of a sentence in a passage discussing knowledge
                of the Common Speech' -- more specifically, discussing
                the Common Speech as a means for interspecial
                communication -- and the text ends (without a full
                stop) in the middle of a discussion of the Common
                Speech; more specifically, with a sentence on the
                Common Speech as a means for interspecial
                communication.

                Furthermore, Christopher Tolkien points to a break in
                the essay where, after three and a half pages of
                manuscript, the typescript draft begins (XII:320 n.
                9). Naturally one wonders whether the manuscript pages
                were, in fact, originally the last pages of a draft
                version of the essay, moved to the beginning at some
                later time. (There could be a simple explanation to
                why this was done. Having coverered the topics of the
                Atani and their languages, the Drúedain, the
                Halflings, Faramir's 'Middle Men', and the lingua
                franca, Tolkien may have found himself returning to
                the Dwarves: 'the Dwarves however were a special
                case'. If this was so, then he may have decided that
                the sections on the Dwarves were better kept together
                and so moved the last pages. This would also explain
                why no subtitle 'I' appears [cf. XII:324 n. 34], if
                the essay having been so arranged never was retyped.)

                However, when queried about the original documents
                Christopher Tolkien kindly responded that the first
                typescript words (XII:298 line 2, 'Only occasionally
                ...') follow in the same line of text, so to speak, as
                the last manuscript words 'in the Fëanorian Script' in
                such a way as to show very clearly that the author
                simply laid down his pen at that point and turned to
                his typewriter.

                Nevertheless, I wonder whether more could be said on
                the matter. If the three and a half manuscript pages
                -- except, perhaps, for the last (few) sentence(s)? --
                originally comprised the end of the text, then the
                essay would have opened with a discussion of the use
                of runes in the Book of Mazarbul and on Balin's Tomb
                -- and this would agree with Tolkien's note on the
                covering page that the essay arose 'from consideration
                of the Book of Mazarbul' (XII:295).

                In my opinion the typescript part on Dwarven runes
                (XII:298-301), where several phrases were later struck
                out and corrected, definitely has the appearance of a
                rough draft, while the section that follows
                ('Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men') seems
                more finished. One deleted note from the first part
                was taken up almost verbatim in the latter (see
                XII:300 n. 21 and cf. the last paragraph on XII:302).
                Perhaps the essay was pieced together of several
                separate texts, some of them rewritten from (partly)
                lost drafts, all written more or less at the same
                time?

                There is another curious fact about the essay as
                printed. After the section on the relations of the
                Longbeards and Men, ending with a paragraph on what
                came to pass in the Second Age (XII:304-5), there
                follows a paragraph on change in the language of the
                Eldar in Middle-earth (as opposed to that of the Eldar
                in Valinor), as seen by Elvish loremasters. This
                paragraph seems to have virtually nothing to do with
                what precedes it, and it is followed by a clear break
                (where later the subtitle 'The Atani and their
                Languages' was pencilled in). Could it be that the
                part on the Atani and their languages was once
                preceded by a text on the Elves and their languages,
                i.e. on Quenya and Sindarin, and that the stray
                paragraph is a remnant of this text? In any case I
                think it possible that Tolkien bundled together a text
                that he had written on the Atani with one or more
                texts on the Longbeard Dwarves to form an essay 'Of
                Dwarves and Men', but perhaps we will never know
                exactly which the constituent parts originally were.

                I note with interest though that the upcoming _J.R.R.
                Tolkien Companion and Guide_ by Hammond & Scull
                contains a section entitled 'Of Dwarves and Men'
                (http://bcn.net/~whammond/Guide topic list.doc).
                Perhaps we will find some answers there?

                /Fredrik Ström
              • Jerome Colburn
                ... The wild thought has occurred to me to read it as *_ar-cas+ta-r_: an agent noun in _-r_ to a verb *_casta-_ (in turn formed by adding causative _-ta_ to
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 1, 2006
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                  At 09:10 AM 10/27/06, Roman Rausch wrote:

                  >_arcastar_ 'Tolkien'
                  >
                  >Tolkien's name is an anglicization of _Tollkiehn_ , German _tollkühn_
                  >'foolhardy, reckless, desperately brave' (compare Letter no.165),
                  >containing _toll_ 'insane, mad, wild' and _kühn_ 'brave'. A more or
                  >less literal translation into English Tolkien himself also made, was
                  >'Rashbold' (IX:151).
                  >
                  >I would analyze the Quenya word as _*arca-star_.

                  The wild thought has occurred to me to read it as *_ar-cas+ta-r_: an agent
                  noun in _-r_ to a verb *_casta-_ (in turn formed by adding causative _-ta_
                  to the root KAS- "head") with modifying prefix _ar-_.

                  [Wild it may be, but I had a similar thought. Consider the term "headstrong",
                  partly synonymous with "foolhardy", though milder. CFH]

                  In _Telcontar_ we have an instance of a surname formed by the _-r_ suffix
                  added to a verb stem formed with the _-ta_ suffix added to a root meaning a
                  body part!

                  The meaning would seem to be someone who puts his head outside or beside
                  (the place where it should be), exposing it to risk.

                  The question of the meaning of the name _Castamir_ also arises.

                  Jerome Colburn
                  jcolburn@...
                  blog: http://www.uniquesupport.net/Lists/Jerome%20Colburn/View%20Items.htm
                • Andreas Johansson
                  ... In Note 24 to Quendi and Eldar, we learn that [m]edial z
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 1, 2006
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                    Quoting Roman Rausch <aranwe@...>:

                    > And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
                    > know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
                    > vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
                    > deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.
                    >
                    > In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
                    > after _-s-_.
                    >
                    > The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
                    > have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

                    In Note 24 to Quendi and Eldar, we learn that "[m]edial z < s had became r in
                    the Ñoldorin dialect of Q except when an adjacent syllable, or (as here) the
                    same syllable, already contained an r", the context being why Dwarvish _Khazâd_
                    was adapted to Quenya as _Kasar_ rather than **_Karar_. Thus from a phonological
                    point of view, there need not be any objection to assuming the presence of SAR.

                    Andreas
                  • hisilome
                    ... Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_ preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the pronunciation rules as for example
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 4, 2006
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                      --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
                      > know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
                      > vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
                      > deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

                      Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                      preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the pronunciation
                      rules as for example given in the Appendices of _LotR_, although the
                      example given there involves double _n_)?

                      Or is the passage in VT44:20 to be interpreted to say that rhotacism
                      did not occur when _s_ was followed by a stressed vowel, _regardless in
                      which syllable_ (as long as it comes after the _s_)? From the example
                      given, though, I get the impression that it has to follow the _s_
                      _immediately_ for the rule (of no change from _s_ to _r_) to apply:
                      _ósAnwe_.

                      [That's my impression as well. CFH]

                      David
                    • Pavel Iosad
                      Hello, ... This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that we could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress (witness
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                        Hello,

                        > Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                        > preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the
                        > pronunciation rules as for example given in the Appendices of
                        >_LotR_, although the example given there involves double _n_)?

                        This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that we
                        could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress
                        (witness similar developments in Germanic due to Werner's law with
                        rhotacised and non-rhotacised forms coinhabiting the same paradigm, as
                        in OIcel _kjósa_, participle _kørinn_ 'to choose'). Indeed the very
                        word _ósanwe_ could be expected to exhibit this alternation, of
                        course. However, since no examples are provided by Tolkien, it is
                        rather pointless to speculate whether the paradigm would be levelled
                        to follow the nominative or remain true to the historical phonology;
                        what we can do is only note that something like that could be
                        possible.

                        --Pavel
                      • Beregond. Anders Stenström
                        ... The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible. The words above the second line of tengwar are: In Elvish language & script The note in green
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                          I wrote:

                          > With some luck, the reproduction in the printed catalogue is
                          > large enough to allow a more certain reading.

                          The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible. The
                          words above the second line of tengwar are:

                          "In Elvish language
                          & script"

                          The note in green reads:

                          "Here are some specimens. A is a transliteration
                          of English. But this happens not to be very decorative
                          and lacks the XX <a-tehta> = a. B is a translation
                          into Elvish (Quenya)"

                          XX is a deleted "de", apparently the start of a
                          repetitious "decorative". The a-tehta is underlined.

                          (For the final note, in black, see Carl's reading
                          earlier in this thread.)

                          Suilad,

                          Beregond, Anders Stenstr�m
                        • j_mach_wust
                          Beregond/Anders Stenström wrote: ... ... May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of Mondósaresse ? On the scan available at
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                            Beregond/Anders Stenström wrote:
                            ...
                            > The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible.
                            ...

                            May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of
                            'Mondósaresse'? On the scan available at Christie's, I can make out
                            that there is the tengwa 'esse', but I cannot see whether there is an
                            acute above, and--if there is an acute--whether the acute is below the
                            upper stroke of esse or above.

                            grüess
                            j. 'mach' wust
                          • hisilome
                            ... My original objection was mainly to Roman s statement that in _Mondósaresse_ the _s_ is followed by the stressed vowel, which is patently false (if one
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                              --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel Iosad" <edricson@...>
                              wrote:

                              > > Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                              > > preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the
                              > > pronunciation rules as for example given in the Appendices of
                              > >_LotR_, although the example given there involves double _n_)?
                              >
                              >This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that
                              >we could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress
                              >(witness similar developments in Germanic due to Werner's law with
                              >rhotacised and non-rhotacised forms coinhabiting the same paradigm,
                              >as in OIcel _kjósa_, participle _kørinn_ 'to choose'). Indeed the
                              >very word _ósanwe_ could be expected to exhibit this alternation, of
                              > course. However, since no examples are provided by Tolkien, it is
                              > rather pointless to speculate whether the paradigm would be levelled
                              > to follow the nominative or remain true to the historical phonology;
                              > what we can do is only note that something like that could be
                              > possible.

                              My original objection was mainly to Roman's statement that in
                              _Mondósaresse_ the _s_ is followed by the stressed vowel, which is
                              patently false (if one agrees that it should be followed
                              _immediately_ by the stressed vowel, just as in Verner's Law it is
                              the stress on the _immediately_ _preceding_ vowel that prevented
                              voiceless fricatives from becoming voiced ones [and, by extension,
                              _s_ from becoming _r_ via _z_]). Thus the accent of the word should
                              probably not be seen here as a reason why rhotacism did not occur.

                              This is why I do not fully agree with your argument: yes, one might
                              assume of _ósanwe_ that, for example, the locative could be
                              _óranwesse_ ("true to historical phonology", and similar to your Old
                              Icelandic example), while it might just as well be _ósanwesse_
                              (analogical leveling).

                              I just don't see how this is relevant for _Mondósaresse_ and its
                              assumed nominative, since the stress is never in the pertinent
                              syllable anyway. All one can say is that if the word's second element
                              is indeed derived from SAR-, rhotacism "should" probably have
                              occurred (in both the nominative and the locative), but for some
                              reason it didn't. Of course it is also quite possible, as Roman says,
                              that SAR- is not involved at all.

                              David
                            • "Beregond. Anders Stenström"
                              ... There is an acute below the ascender of the esse. Suilad, Beregond
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
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                                j. 'mach' wust wrote:

                                > May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of
                                > 'Mondósaresse'? On the scan available at Christie's, I can make out
                                > that there is the tengwa 'esse', but I cannot see whether there is an
                                > acute above, and--if there is an acute--whether the acute is below the
                                > upper stroke of esse or above.

                                There is an 'acute' below the ascender of the esse.

                                Suilad,

                                Beregond
                              • Harm J. Schelhaas
                                On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list. As I had shown Beregond s [Anders Stenström s] initial post and Christie s lot
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 7, 2006
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                                  On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list.

                                  As I had shown Beregond's [Anders Stenström's] initial post and Christie's
                                  lot description to a Smial meeting of the Dutch Tolkien Society Unquendor,
                                  I've been relaying the discussion on "Tolkien in Oxford" here on Lambengolmor
                                  to an interested member of Unquendor. She is a professional linguist, and
                                  used to belong to Unquendor's working group on Elvish Linquistics, when that
                                  existed long before the time of VT, but dropped out of that field for a long time.

                                  (I myself have no solid background in linguistics, which is why I follow this
                                  group with keen interest, but usually do not take part myself.)

                                  On reading the rhotacism discussion, she at first thought people here were
                                  discussing whether the r in "_mondósaResse_" could have developed from an s.
                                  When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s ("_mondóSaresse_")
                                  hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that rhotacism of the first consonant in
                                  the second element of a compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had
                                  not realized that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently would
                                  have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

                                  -- Harm J. Schelhaas

                                  [Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so, though I would
                                  caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age of the compound and to
                                  what degree it is perceived to be a compound by the speakers of the language.
                                  Not that either of those are necessarily at issue in this particular example, but
                                  something to bear in mind lest it be regarded as a rule in all cases. CFH]

                                  [And while I'm at it, another gentle reminder to all members to please sign your
                                  posts with your real names, and to refer to other contributors by real name. I don't
                                  mind the use of _epessi_ and other nicknames in email adresses, but I think it
                                  behooves us to use real names in posts and citations. Thanks. CFH]
                                • Roman Rausch
                                  ... An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ * daughter/child of twilight (V:385) with the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 8, 2006
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                                    --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Harm J. Schelhaas"
                                    <harm.j.schelhaas@...> wrote:

                                    >When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s
                                    >("_mondóSaresse_") hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that
                                    >rhotacism of the first consonant in the second element of a
                                    >compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had not realized
                                    >that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently
                                    >would have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

                                    >[Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so,
                                    >though I would caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age
                                    >of the compound and to what degree it is perceived to be a compound
                                    >by the speakers of the language. [...] CFH]

                                    An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to
                                    exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ *'daughter/child of twilight' (V:385)
                                    with the primitive form given as _tindômiselde_, root SEL-D.

                                    But in the context of _Mondósaresse_ this discussion is now pointless
                                    anyway - the note from "Quendi & Eldar" Andreas Johansson pointed out
                                    in message #950 should have the most relevance here, I think.

                                    Roman R.
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