Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: "Tolkien in Oxford"

Expand Messages
  • Roman Rausch
    ... Very interesting! I cannot resist analyzing this right away: _mondósaresse_ in Oxford In Letter no.342 Tolkien gives the elvish word for bull as
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 27, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      >_arcastar mondósaresse_

      Very interesting! I cannot resist analyzing this right away:

      _mondósaresse_ 'in Oxford'

      In Letter no.342 Tolkien gives "the elvish word for 'bull'" as _mundo_
      (apparently in Quenya), so that one can identify _mondo_ 'ox' here.
      An element 'ford, crossing' would be then expected to follow and
      indeed _-sar-_ can be related to THAR- 'across, beyond' (V:392), also
      _thar-_ 'athwart, across' in the _Silmarillion_ glossary with _Tharbad_
      < _thara-pata_ 'crossway'.

      [Note also numerous Q. words in _sar-_ having to do with stones or
      stoniness, as _sarne_ 'stony place' < SAR- (V:385, VT46:12). CFH]

      The long _-ó-_ seems to suggest that one should isolate _#ósar(e)_
      'ford', rather than just _#sar(e)_ with the prefix _ó-_ 'used in words
      describing the meeting, junction, or union of two things or persons,
      or of two groups thought of as units' (XI:367); and _-s-_ < _th_ would
      naturally resist rhotacism here.

      The ending _-sse_ is of course locative, while the vowel _-e-_ before
      it may belong to the preceding word (#_ósare-sse_) or just link the
      ending to it (#_ósar-e-sse_).

      _arcastar_ 'Tolkien'

      Tolkien's name is an anglicization of _Tollkiehn_ , German _tollkühn_
      'foolhardy, reckless, desperately brave' (compare Letter no.165),
      containing _toll_ 'insane, mad, wild' and _kühn_ 'brave'. A more or
      less literal translation into English Tolkien himself also made, was
      'Rashbold' (IX:151).

      I would analyze the Quenya word as _*arca-star_.

      The initial element _arca-_ looks similar to Q _arauka_ 'swift,
      rushing' (PE12:34) from RAVA or RAWA (PE12:79) with many derivatives
      for chase, running, hunting, fierceness; also _rauka_ = _arauka_ 'swift'.
      But of course a diphthong cannot be syncopated, so that one has to
      assume a different derivation from a changed or parallel root, e.g. <
      _*araka_ < (A)RAK- (?); cf. Q _narka_ 'to rend' from NÁRAK- 'tear, rend
      (tr. and intr.)' (V:374, VT45:37).

      The latter element _-star_ seems to be related to STAR- 'stiff'
      (V:388), with _st_ preserved medially. Although this stem yields words
      for grass only — Q _sara_ 'stiff, dry grass, bent', N _thâr_ 'stiff
      grass' and so on — there is a different root TÁRAG- 'tough, stiff'
      producing Q _tarya_ 'tough, stiff' and N. _tarias_ 'stiffness, toughness,
      difficulty', _tarlanc_'stiff-necked, obstinate' with reference to more
      abstract meanings. Hence, _arcastar_ would be something like
      *'rushing [and] stiff-necked'.

      [I like your analysis, though I think _-star_ as 'stiff' (without any
      reference to necks) is a fine rendering of the sense of 'hardy' in
      'foolhardy', both as physically 'hard, tough' and as metaphorically
      'unyielding, resolute'. CFH]

      Roman Rausch
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... That should read placed _above_ the consonant , of course; sorry for the typo. Carl
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 27, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        On Oct 27, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

        > The final note, in black, reads:
        >
        > "NB the vowel signs i, e, a, o, u <corresponding _tehta_ above each
        > vowel> are placed _after_ the consonant which they follow in speech."

        That should read "placed _above_ the consonant", of course; sorry for
        the typo.

        Carl
      • Richard Derdzinski
        ... What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas s title: _Astaldo_ The Valiant ? In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_ Oxford
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 27, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote, regarding _arcastar_ 'Tolkien':

          > The latter element _-star_ seems to be related to STAR- 'stiff'
          > (V:388), with _st_ preserved medially.

          What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas's title: _Astaldo_
          'The Valiant'?

          In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_
          'Oxford' is derived from the stem SAR-. Look at the tengwa _silmë_
          (and not _thúlë_). It can have the meaning 'hard' (as in the OED
          definition of HARD (n.): 'Hard or firm ground').

          Cheers,

          Richard Derdzinski
        • Roman Rausch
          ... I believe that _Astaldo_ should be rather related to STÁLAG- with primitive _stalga_ stalwart, steady, firm , N _thalion_ hero, dauntless man (V:388)
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Derdzinski"
            <galadhorn@...> wrote:

            >What about connecting _-(a)sta-r_ with Tulkas's title: _Astaldo_
            >'The Valiant'?

            I believe that _Astaldo_ should be rather related to STÁLAG- with
            primitive _stalga_ 'stalwart, steady, firm', N _thalion_ 'hero,
            dauntless man' (V:388) and so on. Thus: _*a-stal-do_ with _-do_ as
            e.g. in _Hildor_ 'followers' from KHILI 'follow' (XI:387).

            (Analyzing the name as _*a-sta-ldo_ one runs into several problems - a
            root *(A)SAT(A)- 'valiant' is needed, but not attested; just as the
            personal ending _-ldo_, if I do not overlook anything.)

            >In my humble opinion the second element in the name _Mondósar(e)_
            >'Oxford' is derived from the stem SAR-. Look at the tengwa _silmë_
            >(and not _thúlë_). It can have the meaning 'hard' (as in the OED
            >definition of HARD (n.): 'Hard or firm ground').

            In the "_Namárie_" calligraphy in _The Road Goes Ever On_ we encounter
            _sindanóriello_ and _hísie_, both written with a _silme_, although
            deriving from THIN- (V:392) and KHITH- 'mist, fog' (V:364).

            And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
            know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
            vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
            deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

            In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
            after _-s-_.

            The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
            have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

            Besides, the connection beween _sar-_ *'hard ground' and 'ford'
            appears somewhat vague to me, while THAR- is directly attested in
            another name of a ford.

            [The connection with SAR-, if there is one, would I think be to the
            various derivatives connoting or related to stones or stoniness, fords
            often being made of gravel or other agglomerated stones. Note
            S. _Sarn-athrad_ 'Stony-ford' (LR:172, RC:163). CFH]

            Roman Rausch
          • Florian Dombach
            Just a minor correction: For me the first word of the Elvish greeting (inscribed by Tolkien in the copy of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ being auctioned) reads
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Just a minor correction:

              For me the first word of the Elvish greeting (inscribed by Tolkien in
              the copy of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ being auctioned) reads neither
              "_elen_" nor "_elem_", as stated on the DTS site, but in fact "_elme_",
              but I will leave it to the Quenya experts to judge if this may have been
              Tolkien's intention or just a double mistake.

              Regards,
              Florian Dombach

              [You are quite correct that the first word is actually written as
              "_elme_". I have no doubt that this was a mistake on Tolkien's
              part, not intentional. As I mentioned previously, Tolkien was
              making this inscription for the cameras, and not at his leisure,
              accounting for the missed and subsequently inserted "_lúmenna_"
              and, no doubt, this misspelling as well. CFH]
            • Beregond. Anders Stenstr�
              ... I read the first line and a half in this way: Here {or Above ?} are some specimens. A is a transliteration of English. But this happens [Aha! I think
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                > The note in green at the bottom of the sheet appears to read:
                >
                > "[?Shown over] some explanations. A is a transliteration of English,
                > [?that thus] happens not to be very decorative [?since lacking] the [?
                > <a-_tehta_> = a]. B is a translation into Elvish (Quenya)"

                I read the first line and a half in this way:

                "Here {or "Above"?} are some specimens. A is a transliteration
                of English. But this happens "

                [Aha! I think you've go it. CFH]

                With some luck, the reproduction in the printed catalogue is
                large enough to allow a more certain reading.

                Suilad,

                Beregond
              • F.S.
                It has long appeared to me that as printed in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ (XII:295-320), the essay Of Dwarves and Men is strangely circular in disposition.
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 28, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  It has long appeared to me that as printed in _The
                  Peoples of Middle-earth_ (XII:295-320), the essay 'Of
                  Dwarves and Men' is strangely circular in disposition.
                  Christopher Tolkien notes that it 'takes up in the
                  middle of a sentence in a passage discussing knowledge
                  of the Common Speech' -- more specifically, discussing
                  the Common Speech as a means for interspecial
                  communication -- and the text ends (without a full
                  stop) in the middle of a discussion of the Common
                  Speech; more specifically, with a sentence on the
                  Common Speech as a means for interspecial
                  communication.

                  Furthermore, Christopher Tolkien points to a break in
                  the essay where, after three and a half pages of
                  manuscript, the typescript draft begins (XII:320 n.
                  9). Naturally one wonders whether the manuscript pages
                  were, in fact, originally the last pages of a draft
                  version of the essay, moved to the beginning at some
                  later time. (There could be a simple explanation to
                  why this was done. Having coverered the topics of the
                  Atani and their languages, the Drúedain, the
                  Halflings, Faramir's 'Middle Men', and the lingua
                  franca, Tolkien may have found himself returning to
                  the Dwarves: 'the Dwarves however were a special
                  case'. If this was so, then he may have decided that
                  the sections on the Dwarves were better kept together
                  and so moved the last pages. This would also explain
                  why no subtitle 'I' appears [cf. XII:324 n. 34], if
                  the essay having been so arranged never was retyped.)

                  However, when queried about the original documents
                  Christopher Tolkien kindly responded that the first
                  typescript words (XII:298 line 2, 'Only occasionally
                  ...') follow in the same line of text, so to speak, as
                  the last manuscript words 'in the Fëanorian Script' in
                  such a way as to show very clearly that the author
                  simply laid down his pen at that point and turned to
                  his typewriter.

                  Nevertheless, I wonder whether more could be said on
                  the matter. If the three and a half manuscript pages
                  -- except, perhaps, for the last (few) sentence(s)? --
                  originally comprised the end of the text, then the
                  essay would have opened with a discussion of the use
                  of runes in the Book of Mazarbul and on Balin's Tomb
                  -- and this would agree with Tolkien's note on the
                  covering page that the essay arose 'from consideration
                  of the Book of Mazarbul' (XII:295).

                  In my opinion the typescript part on Dwarven runes
                  (XII:298-301), where several phrases were later struck
                  out and corrected, definitely has the appearance of a
                  rough draft, while the section that follows
                  ('Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men') seems
                  more finished. One deleted note from the first part
                  was taken up almost verbatim in the latter (see
                  XII:300 n. 21 and cf. the last paragraph on XII:302).
                  Perhaps the essay was pieced together of several
                  separate texts, some of them rewritten from (partly)
                  lost drafts, all written more or less at the same
                  time?

                  There is another curious fact about the essay as
                  printed. After the section on the relations of the
                  Longbeards and Men, ending with a paragraph on what
                  came to pass in the Second Age (XII:304-5), there
                  follows a paragraph on change in the language of the
                  Eldar in Middle-earth (as opposed to that of the Eldar
                  in Valinor), as seen by Elvish loremasters. This
                  paragraph seems to have virtually nothing to do with
                  what precedes it, and it is followed by a clear break
                  (where later the subtitle 'The Atani and their
                  Languages' was pencilled in). Could it be that the
                  part on the Atani and their languages was once
                  preceded by a text on the Elves and their languages,
                  i.e. on Quenya and Sindarin, and that the stray
                  paragraph is a remnant of this text? In any case I
                  think it possible that Tolkien bundled together a text
                  that he had written on the Atani with one or more
                  texts on the Longbeard Dwarves to form an essay 'Of
                  Dwarves and Men', but perhaps we will never know
                  exactly which the constituent parts originally were.

                  I note with interest though that the upcoming _J.R.R.
                  Tolkien Companion and Guide_ by Hammond & Scull
                  contains a section entitled 'Of Dwarves and Men'
                  (http://bcn.net/~whammond/Guide topic list.doc).
                  Perhaps we will find some answers there?

                  /Fredrik Ström
                • Jerome Colburn
                  ... The wild thought has occurred to me to read it as *_ar-cas+ta-r_: an agent noun in _-r_ to a verb *_casta-_ (in turn formed by adding causative _-ta_ to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 1, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    At 09:10 AM 10/27/06, Roman Rausch wrote:

                    >_arcastar_ 'Tolkien'
                    >
                    >Tolkien's name is an anglicization of _Tollkiehn_ , German _tollkühn_
                    >'foolhardy, reckless, desperately brave' (compare Letter no.165),
                    >containing _toll_ 'insane, mad, wild' and _kühn_ 'brave'. A more or
                    >less literal translation into English Tolkien himself also made, was
                    >'Rashbold' (IX:151).
                    >
                    >I would analyze the Quenya word as _*arca-star_.

                    The wild thought has occurred to me to read it as *_ar-cas+ta-r_: an agent
                    noun in _-r_ to a verb *_casta-_ (in turn formed by adding causative _-ta_
                    to the root KAS- "head") with modifying prefix _ar-_.

                    [Wild it may be, but I had a similar thought. Consider the term "headstrong",
                    partly synonymous with "foolhardy", though milder. CFH]

                    In _Telcontar_ we have an instance of a surname formed by the _-r_ suffix
                    added to a verb stem formed with the _-ta_ suffix added to a root meaning a
                    body part!

                    The meaning would seem to be someone who puts his head outside or beside
                    (the place where it should be), exposing it to risk.

                    The question of the meaning of the name _Castamir_ also arises.

                    Jerome Colburn
                    jcolburn@...
                    blog: http://www.uniquesupport.net/Lists/Jerome%20Colburn/View%20Items.htm
                  • Andreas Johansson
                    ... In Note 24 to Quendi and Eldar, we learn that [m]edial z
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 1, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Quoting Roman Rausch <aranwe@...>:

                      > And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
                      > know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
                      > vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
                      > deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.
                      >
                      > In its declination stress would sometimes lie before and sometimes
                      > after _-s-_.
                      >
                      > The change _-sar-_ > _-rar-_ does not seem euphonious here and it may
                      > have been the (external) reason to avoid SAR-.

                      In Note 24 to Quendi and Eldar, we learn that "[m]edial z < s had became r in
                      the Ñoldorin dialect of Q except when an adjacent syllable, or (as here) the
                      same syllable, already contained an r", the context being why Dwarvish _Khazâd_
                      was adapted to Quenya as _Kasar_ rather than **_Karar_. Thus from a phonological
                      point of view, there need not be any objection to assuming the presence of SAR.

                      Andreas
                    • hisilome
                      ... Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_ preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the pronunciation rules as for example
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 4, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > And if *_Mondósar(e)_ contains SAR-, then what about rhotacism? We
                        > know a rule that it did not occur if _s_ was followed by the stressed
                        > vowel (VT44:20), which is the case in _Mondósaresse_, but not in the
                        > deduced basic form *_Mondósar(e)_.

                        Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                        preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the pronunciation
                        rules as for example given in the Appendices of _LotR_, although the
                        example given there involves double _n_)?

                        Or is the passage in VT44:20 to be interpreted to say that rhotacism
                        did not occur when _s_ was followed by a stressed vowel, _regardless in
                        which syllable_ (as long as it comes after the _s_)? From the example
                        given, though, I get the impression that it has to follow the _s_
                        _immediately_ for the rule (of no change from _s_ to _r_) to apply:
                        _ósAnwe_.

                        [That's my impression as well. CFH]

                        David
                      • Pavel Iosad
                        Hello, ... This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that we could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress (witness
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello,

                          > Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                          > preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the
                          > pronunciation rules as for example given in the Appendices of
                          >_LotR_, although the example given there involves double _n_)?

                          This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that we
                          could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress
                          (witness similar developments in Germanic due to Werner's law with
                          rhotacised and non-rhotacised forms coinhabiting the same paradigm, as
                          in OIcel _kjósa_, participle _kørinn_ 'to choose'). Indeed the very
                          word _ósanwe_ could be expected to exhibit this alternation, of
                          course. However, since no examples are provided by Tolkien, it is
                          rather pointless to speculate whether the paradigm would be levelled
                          to follow the nominative or remain true to the historical phonology;
                          what we can do is only note that something like that could be
                          possible.

                          --Pavel
                        • Beregond. Anders Stenström
                          ... The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible. The words above the second line of tengwar are: In Elvish language & script The note in green
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I wrote:

                            > With some luck, the reproduction in the printed catalogue is
                            > large enough to allow a more certain reading.

                            The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible. The
                            words above the second line of tengwar are:

                            "In Elvish language
                            & script"

                            The note in green reads:

                            "Here are some specimens. A is a transliteration
                            of English. But this happens not to be very decorative
                            and lacks the XX <a-tehta> = a. B is a translation
                            into Elvish (Quenya)"

                            XX is a deleted "de", apparently the start of a
                            repetitious "decorative". The a-tehta is underlined.

                            (For the final note, in black, see Carl's reading
                            earlier in this thread.)

                            Suilad,

                            Beregond, Anders Stenstr�m
                          • j_mach_wust
                            Beregond/Anders Stenström wrote: ... ... May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of Mondósaresse ? On the scan available at
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Beregond/Anders Stenström wrote:
                              ...
                              > The catalogue has arrived, and everything is legible.
                              ...

                              May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of
                              'Mondósaresse'? On the scan available at Christie's, I can make out
                              that there is the tengwa 'esse', but I cannot see whether there is an
                              acute above, and--if there is an acute--whether the acute is below the
                              upper stroke of esse or above.

                              grüess
                              j. 'mach' wust
                            • hisilome
                              ... My original objection was mainly to Roman s statement that in _Mondósaresse_ the _s_ is followed by the stressed vowel, which is patently false (if one
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel Iosad" <edricson@...>
                                wrote:

                                > > Hm. I thought the stress in _Mondósaresse_ would lie on the _e_
                                > > preceding the double consonant _ss_ (according to the
                                > > pronunciation rules as for example given in the Appendices of
                                > >_LotR_, although the example given there involves double _n_)?
                                >
                                >This is the realm of guesswork: the rule, as given, does imply that
                                >we could have _s_/_r_ alternations in the paradigm relative to stress
                                >(witness similar developments in Germanic due to Werner's law with
                                >rhotacised and non-rhotacised forms coinhabiting the same paradigm,
                                >as in OIcel _kjósa_, participle _kørinn_ 'to choose'). Indeed the
                                >very word _ósanwe_ could be expected to exhibit this alternation, of
                                > course. However, since no examples are provided by Tolkien, it is
                                > rather pointless to speculate whether the paradigm would be levelled
                                > to follow the nominative or remain true to the historical phonology;
                                > what we can do is only note that something like that could be
                                > possible.

                                My original objection was mainly to Roman's statement that in
                                _Mondósaresse_ the _s_ is followed by the stressed vowel, which is
                                patently false (if one agrees that it should be followed
                                _immediately_ by the stressed vowel, just as in Verner's Law it is
                                the stress on the _immediately_ _preceding_ vowel that prevented
                                voiceless fricatives from becoming voiced ones [and, by extension,
                                _s_ from becoming _r_ via _z_]). Thus the accent of the word should
                                probably not be seen here as a reason why rhotacism did not occur.

                                This is why I do not fully agree with your argument: yes, one might
                                assume of _ósanwe_ that, for example, the locative could be
                                _óranwesse_ ("true to historical phonology", and similar to your Old
                                Icelandic example), while it might just as well be _ósanwesse_
                                (analogical leveling).

                                I just don't see how this is relevant for _Mondósaresse_ and its
                                assumed nominative, since the stress is never in the pertinent
                                syllable anyway. All one can say is that if the word's second element
                                is indeed derived from SAR-, rhotacism "should" probably have
                                occurred (in both the nominative and the locative), but for some
                                reason it didn't. Of course it is also quite possible, as Roman says,
                                that SAR- is not involved at all.

                                David
                              • "Beregond. Anders Stenström"
                                ... There is an acute below the ascender of the esse. Suilad, Beregond
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 6, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  j. 'mach' wust wrote:

                                  > May I ask for the last sign of the second tengwar transcription of
                                  > 'Mondósaresse'? On the scan available at Christie's, I can make out
                                  > that there is the tengwa 'esse', but I cannot see whether there is an
                                  > acute above, and--if there is an acute--whether the acute is below the
                                  > upper stroke of esse or above.

                                  There is an 'acute' below the ascender of the esse.

                                  Suilad,

                                  Beregond
                                • Harm J. Schelhaas
                                  On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list. As I had shown Beregond s [Anders Stenström s] initial post and Christie s lot
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 7, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On reflection, I think that I should relay the following thought to the list.

                                    As I had shown Beregond's [Anders Stenström's] initial post and Christie's
                                    lot description to a Smial meeting of the Dutch Tolkien Society Unquendor,
                                    I've been relaying the discussion on "Tolkien in Oxford" here on Lambengolmor
                                    to an interested member of Unquendor. She is a professional linguist, and
                                    used to belong to Unquendor's working group on Elvish Linquistics, when that
                                    existed long before the time of VT, but dropped out of that field for a long time.

                                    (I myself have no solid background in linguistics, which is why I follow this
                                    group with keen interest, but usually do not take part myself.)

                                    On reading the rhotacism discussion, she at first thought people here were
                                    discussing whether the r in "_mondósaResse_" could have developed from an s.
                                    When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s ("_mondóSaresse_")
                                    hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that rhotacism of the first consonant in
                                    the second element of a compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had
                                    not realized that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently would
                                    have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

                                    -- Harm J. Schelhaas

                                    [Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so, though I would
                                    caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age of the compound and to
                                    what degree it is perceived to be a compound by the speakers of the language.
                                    Not that either of those are necessarily at issue in this particular example, but
                                    something to bear in mind lest it be regarded as a rule in all cases. CFH]

                                    [And while I'm at it, another gentle reminder to all members to please sign your
                                    posts with your real names, and to refer to other contributors by real name. I don't
                                    mind the use of _epessi_ and other nicknames in email adresses, but I think it
                                    behooves us to use real names in posts and citations. Thanks. CFH]
                                  • Roman Rausch
                                    ... An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ * daughter/child of twilight (V:385) with the
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 8, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Harm J. Schelhaas"
                                      <harm.j.schelhaas@...> wrote:

                                      >When I pointed out that the discussion was rather why the s
                                      >("_mondóSaresse_") hadn't turned into an r, her reply was that
                                      >rhotacism of the first consonant in the second element of a
                                      >compound is so unheard of, that she as a linguist had not realized
                                      >that one would think of it at all, and that Tolkien apparently
                                      >would have thought the same. Hence the retention of the s.

                                      >[Thanks for reporting this. I have no trouble believe it to be so,
                                      >though I would caution that even if so, it surely depends on the age
                                      >of the compound and to what degree it is perceived to be a compound
                                      >by the speakers of the language. [...] CFH]

                                      An example for an ancient compound with rhotacism carried out seems to
                                      exist, namely: Q _Tindómerel_ *'daughter/child of twilight' (V:385)
                                      with the primitive form given as _tindômiselde_, root SEL-D.

                                      But in the context of _Mondósaresse_ this discussion is now pointless
                                      anyway - the note from "Quendi & Eldar" Andreas Johansson pointed out
                                      in message #950 should have the most relevance here, I think.

                                      Roman R.
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.