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Re: [Lambengolmor] Nurn and the Sea of Núrnen / Nûrnen

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  • ejk@free.fr
    ... All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_, have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 20, 2005
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      Edward Kloczko wrote :

      > Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
      > a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

      PHW wrote :

      > [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
      > which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
      > etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
      > (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
      > and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
      > the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
      > carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
      > Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
      > final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).
      >
      > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
      > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
      > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
      > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
      > lake.]

      All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_,
      have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea
      _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the region _Nurn_ still remains.

      I am not a native speaker of English, but I see not much semantic
      relation between N./S. _*nûrn_ adj. 'sad' and Gnomish _nurn_ noun
      'plaint, lament, a complaint'.

      If we had a Noldorin/Sindarin compound *_nûrn_ + _nen_ it would
      be *_Núrnnen_. _Pelennor_ < *_pelen_ adj. 'fenced, encircled' +
      _nor_ 'land' (see LOTR-Readers Companion:512).

      elfiquement vôtre,

      Edouard Kloczko

      [I'll take Edouard's three points in order:

      1) -- My citation of forms in _nur-_ from GL, QL, and MC was
      not intended to account for the discrepancy in vowel length
      between _Nurn_ and _Núrnen/Nûrnen_. It is possible that the
      varying vowel length is due to differing parts of speech, e.g.,
      adj. *_nûr_ 'sad' vs. noun *_nurn_ 'sadness'.

      Also, please note that I did not cite _all_ derivatives of NURU-
      given in QL, since I was more concerned with the _meaning_
      of the derivatives rather than the vowel length -- QL also gives
      forms with long vowels: _nûru- (pret. _nurûne_) 'growl (of dogs),
      grumble, carp, etc.' and _Núri_ (a name of the death-goddess
      Fui), and the full entry for _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' includes
      the stem-forms _nûr-, nurr-_ (PE12:68).

      2) -- You cannot see a connection between the senses 'sad'
      and 'plaint, lament'? Eng. _plaint_ means 'a complaint or
      lamentation', while a _lament_ or _lamentation_ is 'a passionate
      expression of grief or sorrow'. According to Buck's _Dictionary
      of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_,
      entry for "sad" (16.36) -- "In many languages the words for 'sad'
      are simply derivs. of those for 'grief, sorrow' ... and so mean lit.
      'grieving' or 'sorrowful'. Since Elvish NURU- has connotations
      of 'lamenting, bewailing' (i.e., expressions of grief or sorrow),
      it seems quite plausible to associate this root with 'sad(ness)'.

      3) -- It seems to me unlikely that *_nûrn_ + _nen_ would yield
      *_Núrnnen_ with _rnn_; simplification of _rnn_ >_rn_ in such
      an instance seems probable. Can you cite an example of _rnn_
      as a consonant cluster in Nold./Sindarin? In any event, _Núrnen_
      is just as likely to consist of _nûr_ + _nen_. -- PHW]
    • Wayne G. Hammond
      ... In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a circumflex. It has no accent
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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        Edouard wrote:

        > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
        > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
        > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
        > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

        In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
        printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
        circumflex. It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
        usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
        redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
        had _Nurnen_, without accent. _Nurnen_ is still without an accent on
        the second edition map; I haven't followed this through every Allen &
        Unwin printing in our collection, but a quick look suggests that the
        accent wasn't added until Christopher redrew the general map for
        _Unfinished Tales_ and took the opportunity to correct some errors
        and omissions. (On maps, see RC:lv-lxvii.)

        > (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
        > _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

        _Nurn_ is not in the unfinished index; it appears only on the general
        map. _Núrnen_ in the index (so spelt) is not said to be in any
        particular language.

        Pat wrote:

        > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
        > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
        > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
        > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
        > lake. -- PHW]

        Our own note on this (RC:457) reads: "An old definition of _sad_
        is 'dark-coloured', in particular referring to an unpleasant colour;
        but by the waters of Núrnen were the great fields of Mordor worked by
        slaves, and in that context may be recalled the plight of the Hebrew
        slaves expressed in Psalm 137: 'By the rivers of Babylon, there we
        sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.'"

        Wayne
      • ejk@free.fr
        ... Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the chapter The Black Gate is Closed , first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th printing).
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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          "Wayne G. Hammond" wrote :

          > Edouard wrote:
          >
          > > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
          > > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
          > > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
          > > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?
          >
          > In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
          > printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
          > circumflex.

          Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the
          chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th
          printing).

          > It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
          > usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
          > redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
          > had _Nurnen_, without accent.

          The original map by J.R.R. Tolkien has _Nûrnen_ (either with a circumflex
          or a macron, it is not clear). And in VIII:127, n. 5 there is _Nûrnen_.

          Thanks for your answer.

          So the mystery still remains... :-)

          elfiquement vôtre,

          Edouard Kloczko
        • Wayne G. Hammond
          ... Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was changed to an
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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            Edouard wrote:

            > Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in
            > the chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my
            > copy 11th printing).

            Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first
            edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was
            changed to an acute accent in the second edition, second printing
            (1967). This was one of many changes made at Tolkien's direction in
            the 1967 printing: see notes to _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive
            Bibliography_ A5e.

            Wayne
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