Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: _Uvanwaith_ 'the Nomenlands'

Expand Messages
  • Jerome Colburn
    At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario ... A word for no one formed with the elements for not and who? is found in Greek and
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 17, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario
      Martinez's post:

      >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
      >interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
      >unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
      >the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
      >words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
      >interrogative elements.

      A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and "who?" is found
      in Greek and would have been familiar to Tolkien: _outis_, which is what
      Odysseus named himself to Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into
      English as "Noman".

      [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite pronoun
      'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative 'who? what?' To say
      that Gk. _outis_ 'no one, nobody' is formed from an interrogative
      is thus misleading -- it is more likely formed from _tis_ in its
      function as an indefinite pronoun. And there is no evidence that I
      know of that Eldarin _ma, man_ and derivatives were ever used as
      anything other than pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

      Analogous negatives not formed with interrogatives don't prevent the
      occurrence of the negative + interrogative construction; e.g., we say
      "nowhere" in English even though we do not say *"nowhen".

      [Again, English _where_ and _when_ are not exclusively interrogatives;
      they are also used as straightforward pronouns -- _unlike_ Eldarin
      _ma, man_, which are only attested as interrogative. -- PHW]

      > I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
      >'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
      >male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
      >_unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
      >the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
      >we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
      >mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
      >'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]

      Gn. _umon_ can work because _an_ already meant "person" generally,
      but the gender-specificity of the other terms (and which is the entire
      point of Ancalime's quip) and of N. _anw_ seems to me to be an
      obstacle. _uv_ + _anw_ + _gwaith_ would form a term for a commune
      of separatist feminists, which does not seem to be what Tolkien had
      in mind.

      [First: words meaning 'a male, a man' have a tendency in Elvish
      (as in primary-world languages) to extend their sense to mean
      'people in general' -- look no further than N. _gwaith_, the final
      element in _Uvanwaith_ itself, which according to the _Etymologies_
      is lit. 'manhood, also used == man-power, troop of able-bodied
      men, host, regiment' (V:398, VT46:21), said to occur in _Forodweith_
      'Northmen', a race which presumably also included women among
      their number. (The form _Forodwaith_ also occurs in the _Etym._
      s.v. PHOR-.) The base is WEG- '(manly) vigour', with a variety of
      other macho derivatives, e.g. Q. _veo_ 'man'.

      Second: Gn. _an_ 'person' was in etymological origin == 'male', a
      sense still evident in the cognate forms listed with it in GL: _anos,
      anoth_ '†manhood; man (fullgrown), warrior' and _anothrin_
      'adult (of men), fullgrown; manly'. This is certainly _suggestive_
      than later N. _anw_ 'a male' might also have been used in this
      extended sense.

      Third: Even if we are to insist than N. _anw_ only referred to
      males, the term still seems applicable to 'the Nomenlands'. As
      Hammond and Scull note of the later gloss 'Noman-lands', "The
      name undoubtedly derives from _no man's-land_ 'disputed ground
      between two armies', which Tolkien would have known especially
      as applied to the area between the friendly and enemy trenches
      in the First World War" (RC:334). The Nomenlands before the
      gates of Mordor were the blasted remnants of the battle between
      the armies of the Last Alliance and those of Sauron at the end of
      the Second Age; and warfare in Middle-earth (as generally in our
      own world) was primarily conducted by males. -- PHW]

      +-------------------------+
      + Airesseo Kolvorno +
      + Jerome Colburn +
      + jcolburn@... +
      +-------------------------+
      "Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
      Yorker cartoon
    • ejk@free.fr
      Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V The Steward and the
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 18, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed
        them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V
        "The Steward and the King" -- LR:968).

        In the first manuscript of LOTR (according to VIII:127) J.R.R. Tolkien
        wrote _Nûrnen_. On his first map, in spite of what we see on the map
        made by C. Tolkien, "Sea of Nurnen" (VII:309), J.R.R. Tolkien wrote
        "Sea of Nûrnen" (see _J.R.R. Tolkien: Life and Legend_, pg. 63 --
        I examined the original map).

        In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
        Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
        Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
        in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

        In 1982 in the index to UT:458, C. Tolkien translated _Núrnen_ as
        'Sad Water'. Now in 2005 we know that it was according to the
        unfinished index of names; see _Reader's Companion_, pg. 457.
        Nevertheless, that etymology of _núr/nûr-_ is tricky. In V:378 the
        Noldorin adjective _nûr_ is translated 'deep' not 'sad'. And finally,
        there should be a link between the name of the lake/sea and the
        region. But the place-name is _Nurn_, never _Nûrn_ or _Núrn_.

        Could it be that _Nurn_ is a name with "Mordorian" roots, not Elvish?
        The Elves never lived in the land, it was the Dúnedain who gave all
        the Elvish (Sindarin) names, except for _Mordor_, which is a very
        ancient name given far back in the Second Age.

        (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
        _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

        Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
        a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

        elfiquement vôtre,

        Edouard Kloczko

        [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
        which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
        etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
        (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
        and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
        the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
        carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
        Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
        final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).

        So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
        apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
        grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
        hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
        lake. -- PHW]
      • cgilson75
        ... What about the Early Qenya Grammar indefinite article suffix _-ma_ a, some, certain ? This is also possibly etymologically connected with the particle
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 19, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Colburn
          <jcolburn@s...> wrote:

          > At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios
          > De Rosario Martinez's post:
          >
          > >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf.
          > >"the Eldarin interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357,
          > >n. 18) -- it seems an unlikely candidate for the second
          > >element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman', the literal sense of which
          > >would then be 'not-who?'. ... -- PHW ]
          >
          > A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and
          > "who?" is found in Greek and would have been familiar to
          > Tolkien: _outis_, which is what Odysseus named himself to
          > Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into English as
          > "Noman".
          >
          > [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite
          > pronoun 'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative
          > 'who? what?'
          ...
          > And there is no evidence that I know of that Eldarin _ma,
          > man_ and derivatives were ever used as anything other than
          > pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

          What about the "Early Qenya Grammar" indefinite article suffix
          _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' ? This is also possibly etymologically
          connected with the particle _mai_ 'if, whenever'. (See PE14:42,
          59, 71.)

          Given the overlap between indefinites and interrogatives in
          "real" languages it is hard to believe that Tolkien did not have
          at least an historical connection in mind between these
          forms _-ma_, _mai_ and the interrogative _man_ 'who' which
          appears around this time in the poem "Oilima Markirya". And
          by the same token, even if we suppose that these indefinites
          had been rejected by the time of "Etymologies", the plausibility
          of an Eldarin interrogative becoming an indefinite (or vice versa)
          in Q. and N. through the normal processes of semantic and
          syntactic change would still seem to hold.

          Interestingly enough, in Galadriel's Lament when she uses the
          pronoun _man_ her question is rhetorical. Which is to say that
          what she is actually implying is: "no one will refill the cup for me
          now." This is not to suggest that the pronoun was actually used
          this way literally in Quenya. But it does suggest that the element
          did not have far to drift in meaning to make sense in the proposed
          etymology -- for what that is worth :-)

          -- Christopher Gilson

          [In a word, OOPS. Chris's point about the early Qenya suffixed
          indefinite article _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' certainly suggests
          that I was probably being overly hasty (hom-hoom!) in dismissing
          Helios's and Jerome's theories.

          Moreover, in addition to the Qenya forms cited by Chris, GL
          gives "_ma-_ ? root of indef[inite]. cp. _-(u)m_, suffix" (PE11:55),
          with derivatives _madhon, [madh]ir_ 'someone' (m. & f.) and
          _ [madh]eg_ 'something', in which the endings _-dhon, _-dhir,
          -dheg_ are probably mutated forms of _don, dir_ 'who' (m. & f.)
          and _deg_ 'what' (PE11:30).

          So perhaps Helios is right in proposing that _uvan-_ is from
          _ú-_ 'no, not' and _man_ -- save that the latter element is not
          interrogative 'who?' but rather indefinite 'someone', a later
          recurrence of the earlier indefinite sense of the stem _ma-_
          seen in GL and the EQG. If so, then _uvan-_ would in fact be
          quite similar etymologically to Greek _outis_, as Jerome
          suggested. -- PHW]
        • ejk@free.fr
          ... All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_, have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 20, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Edward Kloczko wrote :

            > Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
            > a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

            PHW wrote :

            > [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
            > which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
            > etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
            > (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
            > and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
            > the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
            > carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
            > Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
            > final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).
            >
            > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
            > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
            > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
            > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
            > lake.]

            All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_,
            have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea
            _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the region _Nurn_ still remains.

            I am not a native speaker of English, but I see not much semantic
            relation between N./S. _*nûrn_ adj. 'sad' and Gnomish _nurn_ noun
            'plaint, lament, a complaint'.

            If we had a Noldorin/Sindarin compound *_nûrn_ + _nen_ it would
            be *_Núrnnen_. _Pelennor_ < *_pelen_ adj. 'fenced, encircled' +
            _nor_ 'land' (see LOTR-Readers Companion:512).

            elfiquement vôtre,

            Edouard Kloczko

            [I'll take Edouard's three points in order:

            1) -- My citation of forms in _nur-_ from GL, QL, and MC was
            not intended to account for the discrepancy in vowel length
            between _Nurn_ and _Núrnen/Nûrnen_. It is possible that the
            varying vowel length is due to differing parts of speech, e.g.,
            adj. *_nûr_ 'sad' vs. noun *_nurn_ 'sadness'.

            Also, please note that I did not cite _all_ derivatives of NURU-
            given in QL, since I was more concerned with the _meaning_
            of the derivatives rather than the vowel length -- QL also gives
            forms with long vowels: _nûru- (pret. _nurûne_) 'growl (of dogs),
            grumble, carp, etc.' and _Núri_ (a name of the death-goddess
            Fui), and the full entry for _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' includes
            the stem-forms _nûr-, nurr-_ (PE12:68).

            2) -- You cannot see a connection between the senses 'sad'
            and 'plaint, lament'? Eng. _plaint_ means 'a complaint or
            lamentation', while a _lament_ or _lamentation_ is 'a passionate
            expression of grief or sorrow'. According to Buck's _Dictionary
            of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_,
            entry for "sad" (16.36) -- "In many languages the words for 'sad'
            are simply derivs. of those for 'grief, sorrow' ... and so mean lit.
            'grieving' or 'sorrowful'. Since Elvish NURU- has connotations
            of 'lamenting, bewailing' (i.e., expressions of grief or sorrow),
            it seems quite plausible to associate this root with 'sad(ness)'.

            3) -- It seems to me unlikely that *_nûrn_ + _nen_ would yield
            *_Núrnnen_ with _rnn_; simplification of _rnn_ >_rn_ in such
            an instance seems probable. Can you cite an example of _rnn_
            as a consonant cluster in Nold./Sindarin? In any event, _Núrnen_
            is just as likely to consist of _nûr_ + _nen_. -- PHW]
          • Wayne G. Hammond
            ... In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a circumflex. It has no accent
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Edouard wrote:

              > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
              > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
              > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
              > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

              In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
              printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
              circumflex. It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
              usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
              redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
              had _Nurnen_, without accent. _Nurnen_ is still without an accent on
              the second edition map; I haven't followed this through every Allen &
              Unwin printing in our collection, but a quick look suggests that the
              accent wasn't added until Christopher redrew the general map for
              _Unfinished Tales_ and took the opportunity to correct some errors
              and omissions. (On maps, see RC:lv-lxvii.)

              > (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
              > _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

              _Nurn_ is not in the unfinished index; it appears only on the general
              map. _Núrnen_ in the index (so spelt) is not said to be in any
              particular language.

              Pat wrote:

              > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
              > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
              > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
              > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
              > lake. -- PHW]

              Our own note on this (RC:457) reads: "An old definition of _sad_
              is 'dark-coloured', in particular referring to an unpleasant colour;
              but by the waters of Núrnen were the great fields of Mordor worked by
              slaves, and in that context may be recalled the plight of the Hebrew
              slaves expressed in Psalm 137: 'By the rivers of Babylon, there we
              sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.'"

              Wayne
            • ejk@free.fr
              ... Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the chapter The Black Gate is Closed , first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th printing).
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                "Wayne G. Hammond" wrote :

                > Edouard wrote:
                >
                > > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
                > > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
                > > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
                > > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?
                >
                > In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
                > printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
                > circumflex.

                Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the
                chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th
                printing).

                > It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
                > usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
                > redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
                > had _Nurnen_, without accent.

                The original map by J.R.R. Tolkien has _Nûrnen_ (either with a circumflex
                or a macron, it is not clear). And in VIII:127, n. 5 there is _Nûrnen_.

                Thanks for your answer.

                So the mystery still remains... :-)

                elfiquement vôtre,

                Edouard Kloczko
              • Wayne G. Hammond
                ... Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was changed to an
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Edouard wrote:

                  > Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in
                  > the chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my
                  > copy 11th printing).

                  Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first
                  edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was
                  changed to an acute accent in the second edition, second printing
                  (1967). This was one of many changes made at Tolkien's direction in
                  the 1967 printing: see notes to _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive
                  Bibliography_ A5e.

                  Wayne
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.