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SV: [Lambengolmor] _Uvanwaith_ 'the Nomenlands'

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  • F. Strÿfffff6m
    ... Further to the difficulties mentioned by Patrick, I would add that a name meaning literally * monsterfolk seems a bit strange. As far as I know the region
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 13, 2005
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      Patrick Wynne, on the name _Uvanwaith_:

      > The only analysis of this name that I've found appears
      > in David Salo's _A Gateway to Sindarin_, in which he
      > glosses _Uvanwaith_ as 'wilderness of monsters', < _úan_
      > + _gwaith_ (pg. 394). [...] N./S. _gwaith_, in its lenited
      > form _-waith_, is a common final element in place-names,
      > in which it = '-land', and Tolkien's First Map for LotR
      > provides several Noldorin examples contemporary with
      > _Uvanwaith_: _Forodwaith_ 'Northerland', _Enedwaith_
      > 'Middlemarch', and _Haradwaith_ 'Sutherland' (VII:304–06).

      Further to the difficulties mentioned by Patrick, I
      would add that a name meaning literally *'monsterfolk'
      seems a bit strange. As far as I know the region was
      not inhabited by a people considered monstrous. It is
      clear that _gwaith_ refers primarily to a host, or
      people, and only by extension to the land inhabited by
      that people: cf. V:398 s.v. WEG-, V:382 s.v. PHOR-,
      and the description of the Lossoth as being 'a
      strange, unfriendly people, remnant of the Forodwaith'
      (LR:1041). The name _Forodwaith_ is an exact parallel
      to _Norfolk_ in referring to both people and land. (This
      development is quite normal; cf. _Éotheod_ [first
      appearing on Pauline Baynes' map of Middle-earth],
      meaning both 'horse-people' and 'the land of the
      horse-people', and [for a real-world example]
      _Svethiudh_, 'Sweden' on rune-stones.) _Enedwaith_ is
      glossed 'Middle-folk' (VT42:6). So, _-waith_ in a
      place-name would seem to indicate that the land was
      inhabited by somebody, or, in this case, by nobody:
      *'Nofolk'. But a no man's land is not necessarily a
      wilderness inhabited by monstrous people.

      /Fredrik
    • Jerome Colburn
      At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario ... A word for no one formed with the elements for not and who? is found in Greek and
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 17, 2005
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        At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario
        Martinez's post:

        >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
        >interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
        >unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
        >the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
        >words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
        >interrogative elements.

        A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and "who?" is found
        in Greek and would have been familiar to Tolkien: _outis_, which is what
        Odysseus named himself to Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into
        English as "Noman".

        [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite pronoun
        'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative 'who? what?' To say
        that Gk. _outis_ 'no one, nobody' is formed from an interrogative
        is thus misleading -- it is more likely formed from _tis_ in its
        function as an indefinite pronoun. And there is no evidence that I
        know of that Eldarin _ma, man_ and derivatives were ever used as
        anything other than pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

        Analogous negatives not formed with interrogatives don't prevent the
        occurrence of the negative + interrogative construction; e.g., we say
        "nowhere" in English even though we do not say *"nowhen".

        [Again, English _where_ and _when_ are not exclusively interrogatives;
        they are also used as straightforward pronouns -- _unlike_ Eldarin
        _ma, man_, which are only attested as interrogative. -- PHW]

        > I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
        >'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
        >male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
        >_unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
        >the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
        >we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
        >mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
        >'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]

        Gn. _umon_ can work because _an_ already meant "person" generally,
        but the gender-specificity of the other terms (and which is the entire
        point of Ancalime's quip) and of N. _anw_ seems to me to be an
        obstacle. _uv_ + _anw_ + _gwaith_ would form a term for a commune
        of separatist feminists, which does not seem to be what Tolkien had
        in mind.

        [First: words meaning 'a male, a man' have a tendency in Elvish
        (as in primary-world languages) to extend their sense to mean
        'people in general' -- look no further than N. _gwaith_, the final
        element in _Uvanwaith_ itself, which according to the _Etymologies_
        is lit. 'manhood, also used == man-power, troop of able-bodied
        men, host, regiment' (V:398, VT46:21), said to occur in _Forodweith_
        'Northmen', a race which presumably also included women among
        their number. (The form _Forodwaith_ also occurs in the _Etym._
        s.v. PHOR-.) The base is WEG- '(manly) vigour', with a variety of
        other macho derivatives, e.g. Q. _veo_ 'man'.

        Second: Gn. _an_ 'person' was in etymological origin == 'male', a
        sense still evident in the cognate forms listed with it in GL: _anos,
        anoth_ '†manhood; man (fullgrown), warrior' and _anothrin_
        'adult (of men), fullgrown; manly'. This is certainly _suggestive_
        than later N. _anw_ 'a male' might also have been used in this
        extended sense.

        Third: Even if we are to insist than N. _anw_ only referred to
        males, the term still seems applicable to 'the Nomenlands'. As
        Hammond and Scull note of the later gloss 'Noman-lands', "The
        name undoubtedly derives from _no man's-land_ 'disputed ground
        between two armies', which Tolkien would have known especially
        as applied to the area between the friendly and enemy trenches
        in the First World War" (RC:334). The Nomenlands before the
        gates of Mordor were the blasted remnants of the battle between
        the armies of the Last Alliance and those of Sauron at the end of
        the Second Age; and warfare in Middle-earth (as generally in our
        own world) was primarily conducted by males. -- PHW]

        +-------------------------+
        + Airesseo Kolvorno +
        + Jerome Colburn +
        + jcolburn@... +
        +-------------------------+
        "Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
        Yorker cartoon
      • ejk@free.fr
        Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V The Steward and the
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 18, 2005
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          Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed
          them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V
          "The Steward and the King" -- LR:968).

          In the first manuscript of LOTR (according to VIII:127) J.R.R. Tolkien
          wrote _Nûrnen_. On his first map, in spite of what we see on the map
          made by C. Tolkien, "Sea of Nurnen" (VII:309), J.R.R. Tolkien wrote
          "Sea of Nûrnen" (see _J.R.R. Tolkien: Life and Legend_, pg. 63 --
          I examined the original map).

          In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
          Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
          Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
          in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

          In 1982 in the index to UT:458, C. Tolkien translated _Núrnen_ as
          'Sad Water'. Now in 2005 we know that it was according to the
          unfinished index of names; see _Reader's Companion_, pg. 457.
          Nevertheless, that etymology of _núr/nûr-_ is tricky. In V:378 the
          Noldorin adjective _nûr_ is translated 'deep' not 'sad'. And finally,
          there should be a link between the name of the lake/sea and the
          region. But the place-name is _Nurn_, never _Nûrn_ or _Núrn_.

          Could it be that _Nurn_ is a name with "Mordorian" roots, not Elvish?
          The Elves never lived in the land, it was the Dúnedain who gave all
          the Elvish (Sindarin) names, except for _Mordor_, which is a very
          ancient name given far back in the Second Age.

          (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
          _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

          Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
          a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

          elfiquement vôtre,

          Edouard Kloczko

          [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
          which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
          etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
          (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
          and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
          the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
          carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
          Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
          final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).

          So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
          apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
          grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
          hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
          lake. -- PHW]
        • cgilson75
          ... What about the Early Qenya Grammar indefinite article suffix _-ma_ a, some, certain ? This is also possibly etymologically connected with the particle
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 19, 2005
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            --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Colburn
            <jcolburn@s...> wrote:

            > At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios
            > De Rosario Martinez's post:
            >
            > >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf.
            > >"the Eldarin interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357,
            > >n. 18) -- it seems an unlikely candidate for the second
            > >element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman', the literal sense of which
            > >would then be 'not-who?'. ... -- PHW ]
            >
            > A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and
            > "who?" is found in Greek and would have been familiar to
            > Tolkien: _outis_, which is what Odysseus named himself to
            > Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into English as
            > "Noman".
            >
            > [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite
            > pronoun 'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative
            > 'who? what?'
            ...
            > And there is no evidence that I know of that Eldarin _ma,
            > man_ and derivatives were ever used as anything other than
            > pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

            What about the "Early Qenya Grammar" indefinite article suffix
            _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' ? This is also possibly etymologically
            connected with the particle _mai_ 'if, whenever'. (See PE14:42,
            59, 71.)

            Given the overlap between indefinites and interrogatives in
            "real" languages it is hard to believe that Tolkien did not have
            at least an historical connection in mind between these
            forms _-ma_, _mai_ and the interrogative _man_ 'who' which
            appears around this time in the poem "Oilima Markirya". And
            by the same token, even if we suppose that these indefinites
            had been rejected by the time of "Etymologies", the plausibility
            of an Eldarin interrogative becoming an indefinite (or vice versa)
            in Q. and N. through the normal processes of semantic and
            syntactic change would still seem to hold.

            Interestingly enough, in Galadriel's Lament when she uses the
            pronoun _man_ her question is rhetorical. Which is to say that
            what she is actually implying is: "no one will refill the cup for me
            now." This is not to suggest that the pronoun was actually used
            this way literally in Quenya. But it does suggest that the element
            did not have far to drift in meaning to make sense in the proposed
            etymology -- for what that is worth :-)

            -- Christopher Gilson

            [In a word, OOPS. Chris's point about the early Qenya suffixed
            indefinite article _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' certainly suggests
            that I was probably being overly hasty (hom-hoom!) in dismissing
            Helios's and Jerome's theories.

            Moreover, in addition to the Qenya forms cited by Chris, GL
            gives "_ma-_ ? root of indef[inite]. cp. _-(u)m_, suffix" (PE11:55),
            with derivatives _madhon, [madh]ir_ 'someone' (m. & f.) and
            _ [madh]eg_ 'something', in which the endings _-dhon, _-dhir,
            -dheg_ are probably mutated forms of _don, dir_ 'who' (m. & f.)
            and _deg_ 'what' (PE11:30).

            So perhaps Helios is right in proposing that _uvan-_ is from
            _ú-_ 'no, not' and _man_ -- save that the latter element is not
            interrogative 'who?' but rather indefinite 'someone', a later
            recurrence of the earlier indefinite sense of the stem _ma-_
            seen in GL and the EQG. If so, then _uvan-_ would in fact be
            quite similar etymologically to Greek _outis_, as Jerome
            suggested. -- PHW]
          • ejk@free.fr
            ... All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_, have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 20, 2005
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              Edward Kloczko wrote :

              > Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
              > a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

              PHW wrote :

              > [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
              > which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
              > etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
              > (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
              > and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
              > the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
              > carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
              > Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
              > final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).
              >
              > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
              > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
              > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
              > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
              > lake.]

              All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_,
              have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea
              _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the region _Nurn_ still remains.

              I am not a native speaker of English, but I see not much semantic
              relation between N./S. _*nûrn_ adj. 'sad' and Gnomish _nurn_ noun
              'plaint, lament, a complaint'.

              If we had a Noldorin/Sindarin compound *_nûrn_ + _nen_ it would
              be *_Núrnnen_. _Pelennor_ < *_pelen_ adj. 'fenced, encircled' +
              _nor_ 'land' (see LOTR-Readers Companion:512).

              elfiquement vôtre,

              Edouard Kloczko

              [I'll take Edouard's three points in order:

              1) -- My citation of forms in _nur-_ from GL, QL, and MC was
              not intended to account for the discrepancy in vowel length
              between _Nurn_ and _Núrnen/Nûrnen_. It is possible that the
              varying vowel length is due to differing parts of speech, e.g.,
              adj. *_nûr_ 'sad' vs. noun *_nurn_ 'sadness'.

              Also, please note that I did not cite _all_ derivatives of NURU-
              given in QL, since I was more concerned with the _meaning_
              of the derivatives rather than the vowel length -- QL also gives
              forms with long vowels: _nûru- (pret. _nurûne_) 'growl (of dogs),
              grumble, carp, etc.' and _Núri_ (a name of the death-goddess
              Fui), and the full entry for _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' includes
              the stem-forms _nûr-, nurr-_ (PE12:68).

              2) -- You cannot see a connection between the senses 'sad'
              and 'plaint, lament'? Eng. _plaint_ means 'a complaint or
              lamentation', while a _lament_ or _lamentation_ is 'a passionate
              expression of grief or sorrow'. According to Buck's _Dictionary
              of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_,
              entry for "sad" (16.36) -- "In many languages the words for 'sad'
              are simply derivs. of those for 'grief, sorrow' ... and so mean lit.
              'grieving' or 'sorrowful'. Since Elvish NURU- has connotations
              of 'lamenting, bewailing' (i.e., expressions of grief or sorrow),
              it seems quite plausible to associate this root with 'sad(ness)'.

              3) -- It seems to me unlikely that *_nûrn_ + _nen_ would yield
              *_Núrnnen_ with _rnn_; simplification of _rnn_ >_rn_ in such
              an instance seems probable. Can you cite an example of _rnn_
              as a consonant cluster in Nold./Sindarin? In any event, _Núrnen_
              is just as likely to consist of _nûr_ + _nen_. -- PHW]
            • Wayne G. Hammond
              ... In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a circumflex. It has no accent
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                Edouard wrote:

                > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
                > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
                > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
                > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

                In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
                printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
                circumflex. It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
                usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
                redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
                had _Nurnen_, without accent. _Nurnen_ is still without an accent on
                the second edition map; I haven't followed this through every Allen &
                Unwin printing in our collection, but a quick look suggests that the
                accent wasn't added until Christopher redrew the general map for
                _Unfinished Tales_ and took the opportunity to correct some errors
                and omissions. (On maps, see RC:lv-lxvii.)

                > (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
                > _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

                _Nurn_ is not in the unfinished index; it appears only on the general
                map. _Núrnen_ in the index (so spelt) is not said to be in any
                particular language.

                Pat wrote:

                > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
                > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
                > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
                > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
                > lake. -- PHW]

                Our own note on this (RC:457) reads: "An old definition of _sad_
                is 'dark-coloured', in particular referring to an unpleasant colour;
                but by the waters of Núrnen were the great fields of Mordor worked by
                slaves, and in that context may be recalled the plight of the Hebrew
                slaves expressed in Psalm 137: 'By the rivers of Babylon, there we
                sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.'"

                Wayne
              • ejk@free.fr
                ... Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the chapter The Black Gate is Closed , first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th printing).
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                  "Wayne G. Hammond" wrote :

                  > Edouard wrote:
                  >
                  > > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
                  > > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
                  > > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
                  > > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?
                  >
                  > In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
                  > printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
                  > circumflex.

                  Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the
                  chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th
                  printing).

                  > It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
                  > usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
                  > redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
                  > had _Nurnen_, without accent.

                  The original map by J.R.R. Tolkien has _Nûrnen_ (either with a circumflex
                  or a macron, it is not clear). And in VIII:127, n. 5 there is _Nûrnen_.

                  Thanks for your answer.

                  So the mystery still remains... :-)

                  elfiquement vôtre,

                  Edouard Kloczko
                • Wayne G. Hammond
                  ... Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was changed to an
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                    Edouard wrote:

                    > Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in
                    > the chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my
                    > copy 11th printing).

                    Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first
                    edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was
                    changed to an acute accent in the second edition, second printing
                    (1967). This was one of many changes made at Tolkien's direction in
                    the 1967 printing: see notes to _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive
                    Bibliography_ A5e.

                    Wayne
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