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Re: _Uvanwaith_ 'the Nomenlands'

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  • Helios De Rosario Martinez
    I wonder whether the element _úvan-_ noman or nomen could be formed of the negative prefix _ú-_ plus a lenited form of the personal pronoun _man_ who .
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 13, 2005
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      I wonder whether the element _úvan-_ 'noman' or 'nomen' could be
      formed of the negative prefix _ú-_ plus a lenited form of the personal
      pronoun _man_ 'who'. Such a pronoun is only found, to my knowledge,
      in Quenya interrogative phrases, which counts against this interpretation
      for a Noldorin noun, but it's perhaps another possible explanation.

      Helios

      [Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
      interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
      unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
      the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
      words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
      interrogative elements. I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
      'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
      male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
      _unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
      the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
      we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
      mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
      'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]
    • F. Strÿfffff6m
      ... Further to the difficulties mentioned by Patrick, I would add that a name meaning literally * monsterfolk seems a bit strange. As far as I know the region
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 13, 2005
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        Patrick Wynne, on the name _Uvanwaith_:

        > The only analysis of this name that I've found appears
        > in David Salo's _A Gateway to Sindarin_, in which he
        > glosses _Uvanwaith_ as 'wilderness of monsters', < _úan_
        > + _gwaith_ (pg. 394). [...] N./S. _gwaith_, in its lenited
        > form _-waith_, is a common final element in place-names,
        > in which it = '-land', and Tolkien's First Map for LotR
        > provides several Noldorin examples contemporary with
        > _Uvanwaith_: _Forodwaith_ 'Northerland', _Enedwaith_
        > 'Middlemarch', and _Haradwaith_ 'Sutherland' (VII:304–06).

        Further to the difficulties mentioned by Patrick, I
        would add that a name meaning literally *'monsterfolk'
        seems a bit strange. As far as I know the region was
        not inhabited by a people considered monstrous. It is
        clear that _gwaith_ refers primarily to a host, or
        people, and only by extension to the land inhabited by
        that people: cf. V:398 s.v. WEG-, V:382 s.v. PHOR-,
        and the description of the Lossoth as being 'a
        strange, unfriendly people, remnant of the Forodwaith'
        (LR:1041). The name _Forodwaith_ is an exact parallel
        to _Norfolk_ in referring to both people and land. (This
        development is quite normal; cf. _Éotheod_ [first
        appearing on Pauline Baynes' map of Middle-earth],
        meaning both 'horse-people' and 'the land of the
        horse-people', and [for a real-world example]
        _Svethiudh_, 'Sweden' on rune-stones.) _Enedwaith_ is
        glossed 'Middle-folk' (VT42:6). So, _-waith_ in a
        place-name would seem to indicate that the land was
        inhabited by somebody, or, in this case, by nobody:
        *'Nofolk'. But a no man's land is not necessarily a
        wilderness inhabited by monstrous people.

        /Fredrik
      • Jerome Colburn
        At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario ... A word for no one formed with the elements for not and who? is found in Greek and
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 17, 2005
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          At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario
          Martinez's post:

          >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
          >interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
          >unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
          >the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
          >words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
          >interrogative elements.

          A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and "who?" is found
          in Greek and would have been familiar to Tolkien: _outis_, which is what
          Odysseus named himself to Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into
          English as "Noman".

          [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite pronoun
          'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative 'who? what?' To say
          that Gk. _outis_ 'no one, nobody' is formed from an interrogative
          is thus misleading -- it is more likely formed from _tis_ in its
          function as an indefinite pronoun. And there is no evidence that I
          know of that Eldarin _ma, man_ and derivatives were ever used as
          anything other than pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

          Analogous negatives not formed with interrogatives don't prevent the
          occurrence of the negative + interrogative construction; e.g., we say
          "nowhere" in English even though we do not say *"nowhen".

          [Again, English _where_ and _when_ are not exclusively interrogatives;
          they are also used as straightforward pronouns -- _unlike_ Eldarin
          _ma, man_, which are only attested as interrogative. -- PHW]

          > I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
          >'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
          >male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
          >_unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
          >the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
          >we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
          >mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
          >'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]

          Gn. _umon_ can work because _an_ already meant "person" generally,
          but the gender-specificity of the other terms (and which is the entire
          point of Ancalime's quip) and of N. _anw_ seems to me to be an
          obstacle. _uv_ + _anw_ + _gwaith_ would form a term for a commune
          of separatist feminists, which does not seem to be what Tolkien had
          in mind.

          [First: words meaning 'a male, a man' have a tendency in Elvish
          (as in primary-world languages) to extend their sense to mean
          'people in general' -- look no further than N. _gwaith_, the final
          element in _Uvanwaith_ itself, which according to the _Etymologies_
          is lit. 'manhood, also used == man-power, troop of able-bodied
          men, host, regiment' (V:398, VT46:21), said to occur in _Forodweith_
          'Northmen', a race which presumably also included women among
          their number. (The form _Forodwaith_ also occurs in the _Etym._
          s.v. PHOR-.) The base is WEG- '(manly) vigour', with a variety of
          other macho derivatives, e.g. Q. _veo_ 'man'.

          Second: Gn. _an_ 'person' was in etymological origin == 'male', a
          sense still evident in the cognate forms listed with it in GL: _anos,
          anoth_ '†manhood; man (fullgrown), warrior' and _anothrin_
          'adult (of men), fullgrown; manly'. This is certainly _suggestive_
          than later N. _anw_ 'a male' might also have been used in this
          extended sense.

          Third: Even if we are to insist than N. _anw_ only referred to
          males, the term still seems applicable to 'the Nomenlands'. As
          Hammond and Scull note of the later gloss 'Noman-lands', "The
          name undoubtedly derives from _no man's-land_ 'disputed ground
          between two armies', which Tolkien would have known especially
          as applied to the area between the friendly and enemy trenches
          in the First World War" (RC:334). The Nomenlands before the
          gates of Mordor were the blasted remnants of the battle between
          the armies of the Last Alliance and those of Sauron at the end of
          the Second Age; and warfare in Middle-earth (as generally in our
          own world) was primarily conducted by males. -- PHW]

          +-------------------------+
          + Airesseo Kolvorno +
          + Jerome Colburn +
          + jcolburn@... +
          +-------------------------+
          "Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
          Yorker cartoon
        • ejk@free.fr
          Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V The Steward and the
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 18, 2005
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            Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed
            them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V
            "The Steward and the King" -- LR:968).

            In the first manuscript of LOTR (according to VIII:127) J.R.R. Tolkien
            wrote _Nûrnen_. On his first map, in spite of what we see on the map
            made by C. Tolkien, "Sea of Nurnen" (VII:309), J.R.R. Tolkien wrote
            "Sea of Nûrnen" (see _J.R.R. Tolkien: Life and Legend_, pg. 63 --
            I examined the original map).

            In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
            Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
            Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
            in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

            In 1982 in the index to UT:458, C. Tolkien translated _Núrnen_ as
            'Sad Water'. Now in 2005 we know that it was according to the
            unfinished index of names; see _Reader's Companion_, pg. 457.
            Nevertheless, that etymology of _núr/nûr-_ is tricky. In V:378 the
            Noldorin adjective _nûr_ is translated 'deep' not 'sad'. And finally,
            there should be a link between the name of the lake/sea and the
            region. But the place-name is _Nurn_, never _Nûrn_ or _Núrn_.

            Could it be that _Nurn_ is a name with "Mordorian" roots, not Elvish?
            The Elves never lived in the land, it was the Dúnedain who gave all
            the Elvish (Sindarin) names, except for _Mordor_, which is a very
            ancient name given far back in the Second Age.

            (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
            _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

            Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
            a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

            elfiquement vôtre,

            Edouard Kloczko

            [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
            which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
            etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
            (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
            and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
            the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
            carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
            Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
            final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).

            So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
            apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
            grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
            hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
            lake. -- PHW]
          • cgilson75
            ... What about the Early Qenya Grammar indefinite article suffix _-ma_ a, some, certain ? This is also possibly etymologically connected with the particle
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 19, 2005
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              --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Colburn
              <jcolburn@s...> wrote:

              > At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios
              > De Rosario Martinez's post:
              >
              > >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf.
              > >"the Eldarin interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357,
              > >n. 18) -- it seems an unlikely candidate for the second
              > >element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman', the literal sense of which
              > >would then be 'not-who?'. ... -- PHW ]
              >
              > A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and
              > "who?" is found in Greek and would have been familiar to
              > Tolkien: _outis_, which is what Odysseus named himself to
              > Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into English as
              > "Noman".
              >
              > [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite
              > pronoun 'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative
              > 'who? what?'
              ...
              > And there is no evidence that I know of that Eldarin _ma,
              > man_ and derivatives were ever used as anything other than
              > pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

              What about the "Early Qenya Grammar" indefinite article suffix
              _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' ? This is also possibly etymologically
              connected with the particle _mai_ 'if, whenever'. (See PE14:42,
              59, 71.)

              Given the overlap between indefinites and interrogatives in
              "real" languages it is hard to believe that Tolkien did not have
              at least an historical connection in mind between these
              forms _-ma_, _mai_ and the interrogative _man_ 'who' which
              appears around this time in the poem "Oilima Markirya". And
              by the same token, even if we suppose that these indefinites
              had been rejected by the time of "Etymologies", the plausibility
              of an Eldarin interrogative becoming an indefinite (or vice versa)
              in Q. and N. through the normal processes of semantic and
              syntactic change would still seem to hold.

              Interestingly enough, in Galadriel's Lament when she uses the
              pronoun _man_ her question is rhetorical. Which is to say that
              what she is actually implying is: "no one will refill the cup for me
              now." This is not to suggest that the pronoun was actually used
              this way literally in Quenya. But it does suggest that the element
              did not have far to drift in meaning to make sense in the proposed
              etymology -- for what that is worth :-)

              -- Christopher Gilson

              [In a word, OOPS. Chris's point about the early Qenya suffixed
              indefinite article _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' certainly suggests
              that I was probably being overly hasty (hom-hoom!) in dismissing
              Helios's and Jerome's theories.

              Moreover, in addition to the Qenya forms cited by Chris, GL
              gives "_ma-_ ? root of indef[inite]. cp. _-(u)m_, suffix" (PE11:55),
              with derivatives _madhon, [madh]ir_ 'someone' (m. & f.) and
              _ [madh]eg_ 'something', in which the endings _-dhon, _-dhir,
              -dheg_ are probably mutated forms of _don, dir_ 'who' (m. & f.)
              and _deg_ 'what' (PE11:30).

              So perhaps Helios is right in proposing that _uvan-_ is from
              _ú-_ 'no, not' and _man_ -- save that the latter element is not
              interrogative 'who?' but rather indefinite 'someone', a later
              recurrence of the earlier indefinite sense of the stem _ma-_
              seen in GL and the EQG. If so, then _uvan-_ would in fact be
              quite similar etymologically to Greek _outis_, as Jerome
              suggested. -- PHW]
            • ejk@free.fr
              ... All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_, have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 20, 2005
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                Edward Kloczko wrote :

                > Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
                > a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

                PHW wrote :

                > [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
                > which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
                > etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
                > (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
                > and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
                > the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
                > carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
                > Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
                > final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).
                >
                > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
                > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
                > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
                > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
                > lake.]

                All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_,
                have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea
                _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the region _Nurn_ still remains.

                I am not a native speaker of English, but I see not much semantic
                relation between N./S. _*nûrn_ adj. 'sad' and Gnomish _nurn_ noun
                'plaint, lament, a complaint'.

                If we had a Noldorin/Sindarin compound *_nûrn_ + _nen_ it would
                be *_Núrnnen_. _Pelennor_ < *_pelen_ adj. 'fenced, encircled' +
                _nor_ 'land' (see LOTR-Readers Companion:512).

                elfiquement vôtre,

                Edouard Kloczko

                [I'll take Edouard's three points in order:

                1) -- My citation of forms in _nur-_ from GL, QL, and MC was
                not intended to account for the discrepancy in vowel length
                between _Nurn_ and _Núrnen/Nûrnen_. It is possible that the
                varying vowel length is due to differing parts of speech, e.g.,
                adj. *_nûr_ 'sad' vs. noun *_nurn_ 'sadness'.

                Also, please note that I did not cite _all_ derivatives of NURU-
                given in QL, since I was more concerned with the _meaning_
                of the derivatives rather than the vowel length -- QL also gives
                forms with long vowels: _nûru- (pret. _nurûne_) 'growl (of dogs),
                grumble, carp, etc.' and _Núri_ (a name of the death-goddess
                Fui), and the full entry for _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' includes
                the stem-forms _nûr-, nurr-_ (PE12:68).

                2) -- You cannot see a connection between the senses 'sad'
                and 'plaint, lament'? Eng. _plaint_ means 'a complaint or
                lamentation', while a _lament_ or _lamentation_ is 'a passionate
                expression of grief or sorrow'. According to Buck's _Dictionary
                of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_,
                entry for "sad" (16.36) -- "In many languages the words for 'sad'
                are simply derivs. of those for 'grief, sorrow' ... and so mean lit.
                'grieving' or 'sorrowful'. Since Elvish NURU- has connotations
                of 'lamenting, bewailing' (i.e., expressions of grief or sorrow),
                it seems quite plausible to associate this root with 'sad(ness)'.

                3) -- It seems to me unlikely that *_nûrn_ + _nen_ would yield
                *_Núrnnen_ with _rnn_; simplification of _rnn_ >_rn_ in such
                an instance seems probable. Can you cite an example of _rnn_
                as a consonant cluster in Nold./Sindarin? In any event, _Núrnen_
                is just as likely to consist of _nûr_ + _nen_. -- PHW]
              • Wayne G. Hammond
                ... In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a circumflex. It has no accent
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                  Edouard wrote:

                  > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
                  > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
                  > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
                  > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

                  In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
                  printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
                  circumflex. It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
                  usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
                  redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
                  had _Nurnen_, without accent. _Nurnen_ is still without an accent on
                  the second edition map; I haven't followed this through every Allen &
                  Unwin printing in our collection, but a quick look suggests that the
                  accent wasn't added until Christopher redrew the general map for
                  _Unfinished Tales_ and took the opportunity to correct some errors
                  and omissions. (On maps, see RC:lv-lxvii.)

                  > (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
                  > _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

                  _Nurn_ is not in the unfinished index; it appears only on the general
                  map. _Núrnen_ in the index (so spelt) is not said to be in any
                  particular language.

                  Pat wrote:

                  > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
                  > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
                  > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
                  > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
                  > lake. -- PHW]

                  Our own note on this (RC:457) reads: "An old definition of _sad_
                  is 'dark-coloured', in particular referring to an unpleasant colour;
                  but by the waters of Núrnen were the great fields of Mordor worked by
                  slaves, and in that context may be recalled the plight of the Hebrew
                  slaves expressed in Psalm 137: 'By the rivers of Babylon, there we
                  sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.'"

                  Wayne
                • ejk@free.fr
                  ... Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the chapter The Black Gate is Closed , first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th printing).
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                    "Wayne G. Hammond" wrote :

                    > Edouard wrote:
                    >
                    > > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
                    > > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
                    > > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
                    > > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?
                    >
                    > In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
                    > printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
                    > circumflex.

                    Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the
                    chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th
                    printing).

                    > It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
                    > usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
                    > redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
                    > had _Nurnen_, without accent.

                    The original map by J.R.R. Tolkien has _Nûrnen_ (either with a circumflex
                    or a macron, it is not clear). And in VIII:127, n. 5 there is _Nûrnen_.

                    Thanks for your answer.

                    So the mystery still remains... :-)

                    elfiquement vôtre,

                    Edouard Kloczko
                  • Wayne G. Hammond
                    ... Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was changed to an
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                      Edouard wrote:

                      > Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in
                      > the chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my
                      > copy 11th printing).

                      Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first
                      edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was
                      changed to an acute accent in the second edition, second printing
                      (1967). This was one of many changes made at Tolkien's direction in
                      the 1967 printing: see notes to _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive
                      Bibliography_ A5e.

                      Wayne
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