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_Uvanwaith_ 'the Nomenlands'

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  • Patrick H. Wynne
    In an early draft of the chapter Farewell to Lórien presented in The Treason of Isengard , Keleborn -- describing the lands south of Lórien through which
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 12, 2005
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      In an early draft of the chapter "Farewell to Lórien" presented
      in "The Treason of Isengard", Keleborn -- describing the lands
      south of Lórien through which the Company will pass on
      its way down the Anduin -- mentions an interesting Noldorin
      name: beyond the Wetwang "are the Nomenlands, dreary
      Uvanwaith that lies before the passes of Mordor" (VII:281). A
      variant draft of Keleborn's account repeats the name and gloss
      as "the Nomenlands (of Uvanwaith)" (VII:283). The index to Vol.
      VII cites the name as _Úvanwaith_, in which the long _Ú-_ is
      apparently an error.

      The only analysis of this name that I've found appears in David
      Salo's _A Gateway to Sindarin_, in which he glosses _Uvanwaith_
      as 'wilderness of monsters', < _úan_ + _gwaith_ (pg. 394). EN _úan_
      'monster' appears in the _Etymologies_ s.v. BAN- *'fair, beautiful',
      from *_ûbanô_ (with an acute accent over the _û-_), lit. *'not-
      beautiful one'. N./S. _gwaith_, in its lenited form _-waith_, is a
      common final element in place-names, in which it = '-land', and
      Tolkien's First Map for LotR provides several Noldorin examples
      contemporary with _Uvanwaith_: _Forodwaith_ 'Northerland',
      _Enedwaith_ 'Middlemarch', and _Haradwaith_ 'Sutherland'
      (VII:304–06).

      Salo's interpretation presents two difficulties: 1) The first element
      in _Uvanwaith_ is _uvan-_, not _úan_, and (so far as I can tell)
      Salo doesn't account for this phonological difference; 2) In both
      occurrences, _Uvanwaith_ is glossed by Tolkien as 'the Nomenlands',
      not *'the Monsterlands' or *'Wilderness of Monsters'. This seems all
      the more significant given that the Noldorin name was to vanish,
      while its English gloss survived into the published text as "the
      Noman-lands" (in the chapters "Farewell to Lórien" and "The Passage
      of the Marshes").

      If Tolkien's gloss of _Uvanwaith_ is literal, then _uvan-_ should
      mean 'nomen' or 'noman', in which case the most straightforward
      analysis would be negative prefix *_uv-_ 'no' + N. _anw_ 'a male,
      man (of Men or Elves), male animal' (V:360, VT45:16) -- *_uvanw_
      'noman' + -waith '-land' > _Uvanwaith_ 'Noman-land'. These
      elements are examined in more detail below:

      *UV- 'no'

      QL lists the roots UMU-, UVU as variants of the negative stem Û(2),
      with a derivative "_u-_ or _ûv-_ prefix mainly used before vowels,
      = un-"; and GL gives _û_, "negative prefix with any part of speech",
      which has a "strengthened" variant _um-_ clearly corresponding to
      the root UMU in QL. The _Etymologies_ gives the negative stems UGU-
      or UMU-, and a rejected base MÛ- (whence N. _mû_ 'no'; VT45:35)
      that is obviously a variant of UMU-. N. *_uv-_ 'no' in _Uvanwaith_
      would thus evidently derive from UMU- (which had been in existence
      since 1915) with the usual Noldorin development of medial M > V;
      in other words, N. *_uv-_ is apparently the later conception of Gn.
      _um-_ (in Goldogrin, medial M was retained unchanged).

      ANW 'a male, man'

      According to the entry for *_anu_ (= EN _anw_) in Didier Willis's
      Sindarin dictionary (Edition 1.4):

      "A literal interpretation of the _Etymologies_ would class this word
      as a noun, but David Salo notes that the punctuation in _The
      Etymologies_ is not always reliable. Noldorin _anw_ cannot be
      cognate to the Quenya noun _hanu_ (*_3anû_) because the final
      _-u_ would drop. It must rather be cognate to the Quenya adjective
      _hanwa_ (*_3anwâ_) attested under the stem INI, where it is also
      stated that _inw_, corresponding to Quenya _inya_ "female", has
      been remodelled after _anw_. The combination of these two
      entries, along with the phonological evidences, clearly indicates
      that _anw_ is actually an adjective".

      The entry in the _Etymologies_ reads: "3AN- male. Q _hanu_ a male
      (of Men or Elves), male animal; ON _anu_, N _anw_; Dor. _ganu_.
      (The feminine is INI.)", and as Didier notes, this seems to clearly
      indicate that N. _anw_, like Q. _hanu_, was used as a noun meaning
      'a male' -- entries with the identical format are common in the
      _Etymologies_, e.g., "PÁRAK- Q _parka_ dry; ON _parkha_, N _parch_."
      The appeal to "unreliable" punctuation to explain away the entry's
      obvious meaning is unconvincing, since no change in punctuation,
      short of replacing the semicolon after the entry for Q. _hanu_ with a
      "not equal to" symbol, would yield a plausible alternative
      interpretation.

      On the other hand, the phonological objection raised -- that N.
      _anw_ must be cognate with Q. adj. _hanwa_ rather than Q. noun
      _hanu_ -- appears valid. The Noldorin cognate of Q. _hanu_ ought
      to be *_an_ -- and interestingly enough, GL does in fact list Gn.
      _an_ 'person, "-body", "one", anyone, someone, "they"' (the Qenya
      cognate appears in QL as noun _anu_ 'a male'), which originally had
      the negative forms _umon_ or _unweg_ (the latter is glossed in a
      separate entry in the U-section as 'nobody, no one'). The first form,
      _umon_ (later struck out), might end in Gn. _on_ 'he', but it could
      also end in _an_ 'person', since unaccented _-an_ > _-on_ in
      Goldogrin (PE11:13). If so, then Gn. _umon_ (< earlier *_uman_)
      looks very much like the conceptual predecessor of N. _uvan-_
      in _Uvanwaith_.

      Where Didier's dictionary entry errs, however, is in its flat
      assertion that _anw_ "is actually an adjective", without considering
      the possibility that _anw_ might be both an adjective _and_ a
      noun. Certainly there are many such Noldorin noun/adjectives
      found in the _Etymologies_, e.g., "N _gloss_ snow ... N _gloss_
      also adj. snow-white"; "N _sarn_ stone as a material, or as adj.";
      "[N] _mael_ (*_magla_) stain and adj. stained"; etc. (V:359, 385,
      386). It seems possible that the noun *_an_ 'a male' was not used
      because this syllable was already overworked in Noldorin -- cf. _an-_
      'with, by' (V:374), _an-_ 'long' in _Anfang_ 'Longbeard' (V:348),
      _-an_ '-land' in _Rohan_ 'Horseland' (VI:434, n. 22), _-an_ 'gift' in
      _Rhian_ 'crown-gift' (V:383), etc. -- and this may have resulted in
      the more distinctive adjectival form _anw_ being used substantively
      as well, a process probably aided by analogy with the large class of
      Noldorin nouns ending in _-w_, including _tinw_ 'spark, small star',
      _gwanw_ 'death', _ianw_ 'bridge' (V:393, 397, 400); _curw_ 'craft',
      _harw_ 'wound' (V:366, 386); _celw_ 'spring, source', †_golw_ 'lore'
      (V:363, 377); and _hithw_ 'fog', _pathw_ 'level space, sward',
      _gwelw_ 'air (as substance)' (V:364, 380, 398).

      -- Patrick H. Wynne
    • Helios De Rosario Martinez
      I wonder whether the element _úvan-_ noman or nomen could be formed of the negative prefix _ú-_ plus a lenited form of the personal pronoun _man_ who .
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 13, 2005
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        I wonder whether the element _úvan-_ 'noman' or 'nomen' could be
        formed of the negative prefix _ú-_ plus a lenited form of the personal
        pronoun _man_ 'who'. Such a pronoun is only found, to my knowledge,
        in Quenya interrogative phrases, which counts against this interpretation
        for a Noldorin noun, but it's perhaps another possible explanation.

        Helios

        [Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
        interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
        unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
        the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
        words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
        interrogative elements. I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
        'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
        male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
        _unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
        the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
        we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
        mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
        'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]
      • F. Strÿfffff6m
        ... Further to the difficulties mentioned by Patrick, I would add that a name meaning literally * monsterfolk seems a bit strange. As far as I know the region
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 13, 2005
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          Patrick Wynne, on the name _Uvanwaith_:

          > The only analysis of this name that I've found appears
          > in David Salo's _A Gateway to Sindarin_, in which he
          > glosses _Uvanwaith_ as 'wilderness of monsters', < _úan_
          > + _gwaith_ (pg. 394). [...] N./S. _gwaith_, in its lenited
          > form _-waith_, is a common final element in place-names,
          > in which it = '-land', and Tolkien's First Map for LotR
          > provides several Noldorin examples contemporary with
          > _Uvanwaith_: _Forodwaith_ 'Northerland', _Enedwaith_
          > 'Middlemarch', and _Haradwaith_ 'Sutherland' (VII:304–06).

          Further to the difficulties mentioned by Patrick, I
          would add that a name meaning literally *'monsterfolk'
          seems a bit strange. As far as I know the region was
          not inhabited by a people considered monstrous. It is
          clear that _gwaith_ refers primarily to a host, or
          people, and only by extension to the land inhabited by
          that people: cf. V:398 s.v. WEG-, V:382 s.v. PHOR-,
          and the description of the Lossoth as being 'a
          strange, unfriendly people, remnant of the Forodwaith'
          (LR:1041). The name _Forodwaith_ is an exact parallel
          to _Norfolk_ in referring to both people and land. (This
          development is quite normal; cf. _Éotheod_ [first
          appearing on Pauline Baynes' map of Middle-earth],
          meaning both 'horse-people' and 'the land of the
          horse-people', and [for a real-world example]
          _Svethiudh_, 'Sweden' on rune-stones.) _Enedwaith_ is
          glossed 'Middle-folk' (VT42:6). So, _-waith_ in a
          place-name would seem to indicate that the land was
          inhabited by somebody, or, in this case, by nobody:
          *'Nofolk'. But a no man's land is not necessarily a
          wilderness inhabited by monstrous people.

          /Fredrik
        • Jerome Colburn
          At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario ... A word for no one formed with the elements for not and who? is found in Greek and
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 17, 2005
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            At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios De Rosario
            Martinez's post:

            >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf. "the Eldarin
            >interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357, n. 18) -- it seems an
            >unlikely candidate for the second element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman',
            >the literal sense of which would then be 'not-who?'. Attested Elvish
            >words meaning 'no one, nobody, no man' are formed from non-
            >interrogative elements.

            A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and "who?" is found
            in Greek and would have been familiar to Tolkien: _outis_, which is what
            Odysseus named himself to Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into
            English as "Noman".

            [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite pronoun
            'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative 'who? what?' To say
            that Gk. _outis_ 'no one, nobody' is formed from an interrogative
            is thus misleading -- it is more likely formed from _tis_ in its
            function as an indefinite pronoun. And there is no evidence that I
            know of that Eldarin _ma, man_ and derivatives were ever used as
            anything other than pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

            Analogous negatives not formed with interrogatives don't prevent the
            occurrence of the negative + interrogative construction; e.g., we say
            "nowhere" in English even though we do not say *"nowhen".

            [Again, English _where_ and _when_ are not exclusively interrogatives;
            they are also used as straightforward pronouns -- _unlike_ Eldarin
            _ma, man_, which are only attested as interrogative. -- PHW]

            > I mentioned Gn. _umon_ (< either _an_
            >'person' or _on_ 'he') and _unweg_ 'nobody, no one' (< _gweg_ 'man,
            >male of Elda or Indi (Saska)', PE11:44) in my post. The entry for
            >_unweg_ in GL also gives a feminine form _umir_ (< *_ir_ 'she'; cp.
            >the attested possessive _irtha_ 'her', PE11:11). In the later material
            >we find Q. _Úner_ 'Noman' (UT:211), Ancalimë's name for her ideal
            >mate, in which the second element is Q. _ner_ 'man', as in _Nerwen_
            >'man-maiden' (UT:229). -- PHW]

            Gn. _umon_ can work because _an_ already meant "person" generally,
            but the gender-specificity of the other terms (and which is the entire
            point of Ancalime's quip) and of N. _anw_ seems to me to be an
            obstacle. _uv_ + _anw_ + _gwaith_ would form a term for a commune
            of separatist feminists, which does not seem to be what Tolkien had
            in mind.

            [First: words meaning 'a male, a man' have a tendency in Elvish
            (as in primary-world languages) to extend their sense to mean
            'people in general' -- look no further than N. _gwaith_, the final
            element in _Uvanwaith_ itself, which according to the _Etymologies_
            is lit. 'manhood, also used == man-power, troop of able-bodied
            men, host, regiment' (V:398, VT46:21), said to occur in _Forodweith_
            'Northmen', a race which presumably also included women among
            their number. (The form _Forodwaith_ also occurs in the _Etym._
            s.v. PHOR-.) The base is WEG- '(manly) vigour', with a variety of
            other macho derivatives, e.g. Q. _veo_ 'man'.

            Second: Gn. _an_ 'person' was in etymological origin == 'male', a
            sense still evident in the cognate forms listed with it in GL: _anos,
            anoth_ '†manhood; man (fullgrown), warrior' and _anothrin_
            'adult (of men), fullgrown; manly'. This is certainly _suggestive_
            than later N. _anw_ 'a male' might also have been used in this
            extended sense.

            Third: Even if we are to insist than N. _anw_ only referred to
            males, the term still seems applicable to 'the Nomenlands'. As
            Hammond and Scull note of the later gloss 'Noman-lands', "The
            name undoubtedly derives from _no man's-land_ 'disputed ground
            between two armies', which Tolkien would have known especially
            as applied to the area between the friendly and enemy trenches
            in the First World War" (RC:334). The Nomenlands before the
            gates of Mordor were the blasted remnants of the battle between
            the armies of the Last Alliance and those of Sauron at the end of
            the Second Age; and warfare in Middle-earth (as generally in our
            own world) was primarily conducted by males. -- PHW]

            +-------------------------+
            + Airesseo Kolvorno +
            + Jerome Colburn +
            + jcolburn@... +
            +-------------------------+
            "Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
            Yorker cartoon
          • ejk@free.fr
            Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V The Steward and the
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 18, 2005
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              Slaves lived in the South of Mordor, the Nurn. Elessar Telcontar freed
              them and gave them land around Lake Núrnen (LOTR Book 6, Ch. V
              "The Steward and the King" -- LR:968).

              In the first manuscript of LOTR (according to VIII:127) J.R.R. Tolkien
              wrote _Nûrnen_. On his first map, in spite of what we see on the map
              made by C. Tolkien, "Sea of Nurnen" (VII:309), J.R.R. Tolkien wrote
              "Sea of Nûrnen" (see _J.R.R. Tolkien: Life and Legend_, pg. 63 --
              I examined the original map).

              In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
              Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
              Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
              in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

              In 1982 in the index to UT:458, C. Tolkien translated _Núrnen_ as
              'Sad Water'. Now in 2005 we know that it was according to the
              unfinished index of names; see _Reader's Companion_, pg. 457.
              Nevertheless, that etymology of _núr/nûr-_ is tricky. In V:378 the
              Noldorin adjective _nûr_ is translated 'deep' not 'sad'. And finally,
              there should be a link between the name of the lake/sea and the
              region. But the place-name is _Nurn_, never _Nûrn_ or _Núrn_.

              Could it be that _Nurn_ is a name with "Mordorian" roots, not Elvish?
              The Elves never lived in the land, it was the Dúnedain who gave all
              the Elvish (Sindarin) names, except for _Mordor_, which is a very
              ancient name given far back in the Second Age.

              (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
              _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

              Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
              a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

              elfiquement vôtre,

              Edouard Kloczko

              [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
              which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
              etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
              (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
              and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
              the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
              carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
              Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
              final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).

              So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
              apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
              grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
              hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
              lake. -- PHW]
            • cgilson75
              ... What about the Early Qenya Grammar indefinite article suffix _-ma_ a, some, certain ? This is also possibly etymologically connected with the particle
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 19, 2005
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                --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Colburn
                <jcolburn@s...> wrote:

                > At 05:19 AM 11/13/05, Patrick Wynne annotated Helios
                > De Rosario Martinez's post:
                >
                > >[Given that Quenya _man_ 'who?' is interrogative -- cf.
                > >"the Eldarin interrogative element _ma, man_" (XII:357,
                > >n. 18) -- it seems an unlikely candidate for the second
                > >element in N. _uvan-_ 'noman', the literal sense of which
                > >would then be 'not-who?'. ... -- PHW ]
                >
                > A word for "no one" formed with the elements for "not" and
                > "who?" is found in Greek and would have been familiar to
                > Tolkien: _outis_, which is what Odysseus named himself to
                > Polyphemus (Odyssey ix. 366), rendered into English as
                > "Noman".
                >
                > [Greek _tis_, according to Liddell and Scott, is _an indefinite
                > pronoun 'any one, any thing'_ as well as an interrogative
                > 'who? what?'
                ...
                > And there is no evidence that I know of that Eldarin _ma,
                > man_ and derivatives were ever used as anything other than
                > pure interrogatives. -- PHW]

                What about the "Early Qenya Grammar" indefinite article suffix
                _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' ? This is also possibly etymologically
                connected with the particle _mai_ 'if, whenever'. (See PE14:42,
                59, 71.)

                Given the overlap between indefinites and interrogatives in
                "real" languages it is hard to believe that Tolkien did not have
                at least an historical connection in mind between these
                forms _-ma_, _mai_ and the interrogative _man_ 'who' which
                appears around this time in the poem "Oilima Markirya". And
                by the same token, even if we suppose that these indefinites
                had been rejected by the time of "Etymologies", the plausibility
                of an Eldarin interrogative becoming an indefinite (or vice versa)
                in Q. and N. through the normal processes of semantic and
                syntactic change would still seem to hold.

                Interestingly enough, in Galadriel's Lament when she uses the
                pronoun _man_ her question is rhetorical. Which is to say that
                what she is actually implying is: "no one will refill the cup for me
                now." This is not to suggest that the pronoun was actually used
                this way literally in Quenya. But it does suggest that the element
                did not have far to drift in meaning to make sense in the proposed
                etymology -- for what that is worth :-)

                -- Christopher Gilson

                [In a word, OOPS. Chris's point about the early Qenya suffixed
                indefinite article _-ma_ 'a, some, certain' certainly suggests
                that I was probably being overly hasty (hom-hoom!) in dismissing
                Helios's and Jerome's theories.

                Moreover, in addition to the Qenya forms cited by Chris, GL
                gives "_ma-_ ? root of indef[inite]. cp. _-(u)m_, suffix" (PE11:55),
                with derivatives _madhon, [madh]ir_ 'someone' (m. & f.) and
                _ [madh]eg_ 'something', in which the endings _-dhon, _-dhir,
                -dheg_ are probably mutated forms of _don, dir_ 'who' (m. & f.)
                and _deg_ 'what' (PE11:30).

                So perhaps Helios is right in proposing that _uvan-_ is from
                _ú-_ 'no, not' and _man_ -- save that the latter element is not
                interrogative 'who?' but rather indefinite 'someone', a later
                recurrence of the earlier indefinite sense of the stem _ma-_
                seen in GL and the EQG. If so, then _uvan-_ would in fact be
                quite similar etymologically to Greek _outis_, as Jerome
                suggested. -- PHW]
              • ejk@free.fr
                ... All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_, have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 20, 2005
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                  Edward Kloczko wrote :

                  > Do we have in some unpublished mss. an Elvish root for 'sad' with
                  > a Sindarin/Noldorin word _nûr_?

                  PHW wrote :

                  > [Fortunately, we don't need to resort to the unpublished mss. --
                  > which in any event could not be cited here -- to find a probable
                  > etymological source for _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water'. GL gives _nur-_
                  > (_nauri_) 'growl, grumble', _nurn_ 'plaint, lament, a complaint',
                  > and _nurna-_ 'bewail, lament, complain of' (PE11:61). QL gives
                  > the root as NURU-, whence _nuru-_ 'growl (of dogs), grumble,
                  > carp, etc.' and _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' (PE12:68). Compare
                  > Q. _nurrula_ 'mumbling' < _nurru-_ 'murmur, grumble' in the
                  > final version of "The Last Ark" (MC:222-23).
                  >
                  > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
                  > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
                  > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
                  > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
                  > lake.]

                  All of these Elvish words, including the late Quenya verb _nurru-_,
                  have a short _u_; the discrepancy between the name of the sea
                  _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ and the region _Nurn_ still remains.

                  I am not a native speaker of English, but I see not much semantic
                  relation between N./S. _*nûrn_ adj. 'sad' and Gnomish _nurn_ noun
                  'plaint, lament, a complaint'.

                  If we had a Noldorin/Sindarin compound *_nûrn_ + _nen_ it would
                  be *_Núrnnen_. _Pelennor_ < *_pelen_ adj. 'fenced, encircled' +
                  _nor_ 'land' (see LOTR-Readers Companion:512).

                  elfiquement vôtre,

                  Edouard Kloczko

                  [I'll take Edouard's three points in order:

                  1) -- My citation of forms in _nur-_ from GL, QL, and MC was
                  not intended to account for the discrepancy in vowel length
                  between _Nurn_ and _Núrnen/Nûrnen_. It is possible that the
                  varying vowel length is due to differing parts of speech, e.g.,
                  adj. *_nûr_ 'sad' vs. noun *_nurn_ 'sadness'.

                  Also, please note that I did not cite _all_ derivatives of NURU-
                  given in QL, since I was more concerned with the _meaning_
                  of the derivatives rather than the vowel length -- QL also gives
                  forms with long vowels: _nûru- (pret. _nurûne_) 'growl (of dogs),
                  grumble, carp, etc.' and _Núri_ (a name of the death-goddess
                  Fui), and the full entry for _nur_ 'a growl, a complaint' includes
                  the stem-forms _nûr-, nurr-_ (PE12:68).

                  2) -- You cannot see a connection between the senses 'sad'
                  and 'plaint, lament'? Eng. _plaint_ means 'a complaint or
                  lamentation', while a _lament_ or _lamentation_ is 'a passionate
                  expression of grief or sorrow'. According to Buck's _Dictionary
                  of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_,
                  entry for "sad" (16.36) -- "In many languages the words for 'sad'
                  are simply derivs. of those for 'grief, sorrow' ... and so mean lit.
                  'grieving' or 'sorrowful'. Since Elvish NURU- has connotations
                  of 'lamenting, bewailing' (i.e., expressions of grief or sorrow),
                  it seems quite plausible to associate this root with 'sad(ness)'.

                  3) -- It seems to me unlikely that *_nûrn_ + _nen_ would yield
                  *_Núrnnen_ with _rnn_; simplification of _rnn_ >_rn_ in such
                  an instance seems probable. Can you cite an example of _rnn_
                  as a consonant cluster in Nold./Sindarin? In any event, _Núrnen_
                  is just as likely to consist of _nûr_ + _nen_. -- PHW]
                • Wayne G. Hammond
                  ... In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a circumflex. It has no accent
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                    Edouard wrote:

                    > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
                    > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
                    > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
                    > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?

                    In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
                    printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
                    circumflex. It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
                    usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
                    redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
                    had _Nurnen_, without accent. _Nurnen_ is still without an accent on
                    the second edition map; I haven't followed this through every Allen &
                    Unwin printing in our collection, but a quick look suggests that the
                    accent wasn't added until Christopher redrew the general map for
                    _Unfinished Tales_ and took the opportunity to correct some errors
                    and omissions. (On maps, see RC:lv-lxvii.)

                    > (A question to W. Hammond): Did Tolkien state in his index that
                    > _Nurn_ and _Nûrnen/Núrnen_ are Elvish place-names?

                    _Nurn_ is not in the unfinished index; it appears only on the general
                    map. _Núrnen_ in the index (so spelt) is not said to be in any
                    particular language.

                    Pat wrote:

                    > So S./N. *_nûr_ (or perhaps *_nûrn_) in _Núrnen_ 'Sad Water' is
                    > apparently 'sad' in the sense 'bewailing, lamenting, complaining,
                    > grumbling', no doubt a reference to the general mood of the
                    > hapless laborers in "the great slave-worked fields" beside the
                    > lake. -- PHW]

                    Our own note on this (RC:457) reads: "An old definition of _sad_
                    is 'dark-coloured', in particular referring to an unpleasant colour;
                    but by the waters of Núrnen were the great fields of Mordor worked by
                    slaves, and in that context may be recalled the plight of the Hebrew
                    slaves expressed in Psalm 137: 'By the rivers of Babylon, there we
                    sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.'"

                    Wayne
                  • ejk@free.fr
                    ... Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the chapter The Black Gate is Closed , first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th printing).
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                      "Wayne G. Hammond" wrote :

                      > Edouard wrote:
                      >
                      > > In the first edition of LOTR, the name is spelt _Nûrnen_ in Book 6,
                      > > Ch. V. However, on the general map it is "Sea of Nurnen". "Sea of
                      > > Núrnen" appears on the general map in the second edition. Who put
                      > > in the accent? J.R.R. Tolkien? C. Tolkien?
                      >
                      > In the copies of the first edition on our shelves, the name is
                      > printed in the text _Núrnen_, with an acute accent, not with a
                      > circumflex.

                      Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in the
                      chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my copy 11th
                      printing).

                      > It has no accent on the map, but Christopher followed the
                      > usage on his father's working maps, which (according to Christopher's
                      > redrawings and comments in _The History of Middle-earth_) themselves
                      > had _Nurnen_, without accent.

                      The original map by J.R.R. Tolkien has _Nûrnen_ (either with a circumflex
                      or a macron, it is not clear). And in VIII:127, n. 5 there is _Nûrnen_.

                      Thanks for your answer.

                      So the mystery still remains... :-)

                      elfiquement vôtre,

                      Edouard Kloczko
                    • Wayne G. Hammond
                      ... Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was changed to an
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 21, 2005
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                        Edouard wrote:

                        > Sorry about the ref. but I was referring to _Nûrnen_ as printed in
                        > the chapter "The Black Gate is Closed", first edition, p. 244 (my
                        > copy 11th printing).

                        Ah, yes, there it had a circumflex. This carried over from the first
                        edition into the first printing of the second edition (1966), but was
                        changed to an acute accent in the second edition, second printing
                        (1967). This was one of many changes made at Tolkien's direction in
                        the 1967 printing: see notes to _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive
                        Bibliography_ A5e.

                        Wayne
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