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Re: Haywards, and an uzu

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  • Wayne G. Hammond
    ... No, I don t think so. Too many details have passed by now to be sure, but I think that we meant to point to the mention of the Hay Gate. If we had meant
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
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      Fredrik wrote:

      > I might point out a possible misprint in this context.
      > On p. 655, entry for Hob Hayward, there is a reference
      > to a "note for p. 107". However, Hob Hayward is not
      > mentioned in the notes for page 107 (although the Hay
      > Gate is, as correctly noted in the next entry on page
      > 655 in the _Reader's Companion_). Possibly the
      > reference should read "(See also note for p. 10.)",
      > referring to the note for "haywards"?

      No, I don't think so. Too many details have passed by now to be sure,
      but I think that we meant to point to the mention of the Hay Gate. If
      we had meant the note for p. 10 we would have picked up on the
      duplication of comments on _hayward_ and dealt with it.

      > Magnus points out that *_'uzn_ as the singular
      > of _'azan_ would fit the pattern of _khuzd_ - _khazad_
      > better than _uzu_ does. Could it be that the word was
      > misread in the manuscript of the _Nomenclature_?

      Yes, it was. It should be _uzn_.

      Wayne
    • F. Str�m
      On p. 580 in _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader s Companion_, Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull writes: _athelas_ in the noble tongue [...] In the following
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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        On p. 580 in _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's
        Companion_, Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull writes:
        "_athelas_ in the noble tongue [...] In the following
        paragraph Aragorn gives the corresponding name of the
        plant in Quenya, _asea aranion_ 'leaf of kings'."

        The Sindarin name is discussed on p. 183:
        "Athelas [...] The first element is problematic;
        according to Arden R. Smith, an unpublished etymology
        connects it with Quenya _asea_, as in _asea aranion_
        'kingsfoil' (but if so, _athelas_ = 'leaf-leaf')."

        The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
        attested. The only translation of _asea_ that I know
        of is the one quoted by William C. Hicklin on the
        art.fan.tolkien newsgroup:
        <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/34fc7f494c7ff868/3fad9c3c879f5a2c?lnk=st&q=athelas+hicklin&rnum=1&hl=en#3fad9c3c879f5a2c>

        "Christopher Tolkien and I have had an ongoing discussion about the origins of
        this word. It plainly contains -las 'leaf'. It is possible (but entirely
        speculative) that what Tolkien had in mind at that time (1938-39) was the Old
        English word aethele 'noble, royal.' This would translate 'kingsfoil,' near
        enough. At any rate, a very late note (1970 or later) says that Asea (cf.
        Aragorn, 'asea aranion') was the name in Quenya, regularly adapted and
        compounded with -las in Sindarin. The plant was known to the medical
        loremasters of the Noldor. The root is *ATHAYA, 'helpful, kindly,
        beneficial.' "

        From this it would seem that _asea_ is in fact an
        adjective (perhaps substantivized) meaning *'beneficial'
        and that the 'leaf'(or 'foil') part is understood in the
        Quenya name:_asea [?lasse] aranion_, 'the beneficial
        (leaf) of kings'. But perhaps there are other explanations
        as well.

        /Fredrik
      • Arden R. Smith
        ... Strictly speaking, that s true. It s really just an extrapolation, based on the gloss of _athelas_ as kingsfoil and the transparent meaning of _aranion_
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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          On Nov 13, 2005, at 3:20 PM, F. Ström wrote:

          > The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
          > attested.

          Strictly speaking, that's true. It's really just an extrapolation,
          based on the gloss of _athelas_ as 'kingsfoil' and the transparent
          meaning of _aranion_ 'of kings'.

          > "Christopher Tolkien and I have had an ongoing discussion about the
          > origins of this word. It plainly contains -las 'leaf'. It is possible
          > (but entirely speculative) that what Tolkien had in mind at that time
          > (1938-39) was the Old English word aethele 'noble, royal.' This
          > would translate 'kingsfoil,' near enough. At any rate, a very late
          > note (1970 or later) says that Asea (cf. Aragorn, 'asea aranion') was
          > the name in Quenya, regularly adapted and compounded with -las
          > in Sindarin. The plant was known to the medical loremasters of the
          > Noldor. The root is *ATHAYA, 'helpful, kindly, beneficial.' "

          Interesting. I was unaware of this. The unpublished etymology that I
          cited derives _athelas_ and _asea_ from a similar form (though spelling
          TH with thorn), but unfortunately leaves it unglossed. This etymology,
          incidentally, is considerably earlier than that mentioned by Bill
          Hicklin, dating from sometime between the publication of the first
          edition (1954-55) and the publication of the second edition (1965).

          ***************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
          --Elvish proverb

          ***************************************************
        • F. Ström
          ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 14, 2005
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            --- "F. Ström" <frestro@...> skrev:
            > The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
            > attested. The only translation of _asea_ that I know
            > of is the one quoted by William C. Hicklin on the
            > art.fan.tolkien newsgroup:
            >
            <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/34fc7f494c7ff868/3fad9c3c879f5a2c?lnk=st&q=athelas+hicklin&rnum=1&hl=en#3fad9c3c879f5a2c>

            The URL in my post was editorially changed, but the
            reference to the "art.fan.tolkien" newsgroup was not
            updated to "rec.arts.books.tolkien" along with it.

            [Quite right; sorry! The link you sent originally didn't work for me, so I googled it myself, and didn't notice the discrepancy. CFH]

            Forconvenience I quote the first post by William C.
            Hicklin as well:

            <http://groups.google.se/group/alt.fan.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/7b7287d31cfa1e77/bdb4b12467dc0ad1?lnk=st>

            "The herb was known to the Noldor, who termed it
            "athea" from *ATHAYA 'helpful, kindly, beneficial.' A
            later sound shift rendered it "asea" (cf. Aragorn's
            "asea aranion" in "The Houses of Healing.") In
            Middle-earth the word was converted into regularized
            Sindarin form as athe- plus -las 'leaf.'"

            /Fredrik
          • F. Strÿfffff6m
            On his Addenda and Corrigenda page to RC (http://bcn.net/~whammond/addenda/readers.html), Wayne Hammond writes: On the Lambengolmor forum,
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 2, 2005
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              On his 'Addenda and Corrigenda' page to RC (http://bcn.net/~whammond/addenda/readers.html), Wayne Hammond writes:

              'On the Lambengolmor forum, message 850 [...], Fredrik Ström correctly comments that our gloss asëa aranion 'leaf of kings' is not attested in Tolkien's writings. In message 851, however, Arden R. Smith defends this translation as an extrapolation from the gloss of athelas 'kingsfoil' in an unpublished etymology by Tolkien together with 'the transparent meaning of aranion "of kings"'.'

              What Arden wrote was:
              >The unpublished etymology that I cited derives _athelas_ and _asea_ from a
              >similar form [..] but unfortunately leaves it unglossed

              I think no-one queries the translation *'of kings'. However, in the light of Tolkien's gloss on _athea_ (regularly > _asea_ after the change of Q. _th_ > _s_ described in 'The Shibboleth of Feanor' [XII:331]), I'm not sure that the translation *'leaf' should be defended (and I don't think Arden said so, either). I think that the note on RC:183 is correct except for the parenthesis, '(but if so, _athelas_ = ''leaf-leaf'')', since the attested etymological connection between _athe-_ and _asea_ does not imply that _athe-_ means 'leaf'. In the note on RC:580 ll. 2-3 from bottom, perhaps one should substitute Tolkien's actual gloss ('beneficial') for 'leaf' (or simply omit the words 'leaf of kings')?

              /Fredrik



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • William Cloud Hicklin
              You know, I ve felt guilty for the better part of a decade for my unthinking and unauthorized posting of that snippet on Usenet- especially since soon
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 26, 2006
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                You know, I've felt guilty for the better part of a decade for
                my unthinking and unauthorized posting of that snippet on
                Usenet- especially since soon therafter the copyright-law war
                erupted with the Salo/Star/Fauskanger axis. Fortunately it seems
                that it hasn't spread that far, since even Arden appears to have
                been unaware of it (although it has turned up in a couple of
                online "encyclopedias").

                In any event, it's out, and surely there would be no harm if Wayne
                Hammond and Christina Scull were to use it, since they carry the
                Imprimatur.

                I suspect that _asea aranion/athelas_ is one of those Q-S pairs
                that aren't literal translations. Now, I'm no linguist; but we
                can at least be certain that _asea_ and _athe-_ are equivalent
                elements, and, as Frederik points out, that the Quenya assumed
                or omitted the leaf-element. Or, viewed the other way around,
                that the leaf-element was added by the Exiles when they formed
                their Sindarin equivalent (acc. to the late note, the plant was
                known to the medical loremasters of the Noldor- with no
                indication whether the Sindar were aware of its properties, or
                even if it was native to Middle-earth). The snippet's wording
                has _asea_ regularly > _athe-_, "compounded with _-las_," which
                to me suggests that the _-las_ element only entered with the
                Sindarin conversion. Why would this be? Another note cited by
                Wayne and Christina indicates that only the leaves were used,
                which may be relevant. Or perhaps the linguistic loremasters
                found "athe" alone to be ugly?

                [Tolkien wrote in his note on "Stress" in Section I of Appendix E
                that words in which the stress falls on the third syllable from the
                end -- e.g. _Denethor, Fëanor_ -- "are favoured in the Eldarin
                languages, especially Quenya." It seems natural then that the
                medical loremasters of the Noldor, whose native tongue was
                Quenya, would expand _athe-_ to the more euphonious (not to
                mention distinctive) _athelas_. PHW]

                One might speculate whether "aranion" was a pre- or post-
                Downfall Numenorean addition ("balm" > "kingsbalm"), since the
                specific association of healing with the King appears to have
                been theirs, not the Elves'. This leads to yet another
                question- whether Ad/CS _kingsfoil_ followed or in fact underlay
                the hypothesised Num. addition of _aranion_ .

                -- William Cloud Hicklin

                > I think no-one queries the translation *'of kings'. However,
                in the light of Tolkien's gloss on _athea_ (regularly > _asea_
                after the change of Q. _th_ > _s_ described in 'The Shibboleth
                of Feanor' [XII:331]), I'm not sure that the translation
                *'leaf' should be defended (and I don't think Arden said so,
                either). I think that the note on RC:183 is correct except for
                the parenthesis, '(but if so, _athelas_ = ''leaf-leaf'')',
                since the attested etymological connection between _athe-_ and
                _asea_ does not imply that _athe-_ means 'leaf'. In the note on
                RC:580 ll. 2-3 from bottom, perhaps one should substitute
                Tolkien's actual gloss ('beneficial') for 'leaf' (or simply omit
                the words 'leaf of kings')?
                >
                > /Fredrik
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