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Haywards

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  • F. Strÿfffff6m
    In their excellent book _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader s Companion_, Wayne G.Hammond and Christina Scull write: haywards -- The term _hayward_ originally
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
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      In their excellent book _The Lord of the Rings: A
      Reader's Companion_, Wayne G.Hammond and Christina
      Scull write:

      "haywards -- The term _hayward_ originally referred to
      one who protected the fences around lands enclosed for
      growing hay (Old English _hegeweard_), later more
      generally applied to one who prevents cattle from
      breaking through into enclosed fields with growing
      crops." (p. 35)

      There are two words _hay_ in English, of distinct
      origin:

      hay(1). Dried grass. AS. _hieg_ [i with a macron],
      cognate with _hew_.

      hay(2). Hedge, enclosure. AS. _hege_ ... Survives in
      name _Hayward_, official protecting enclosures.

      (Weekley, _Concise Etymological Dictionary of Modern
      English_. Other etymological dictionaries say
      basically the same, e.g. Skeat,
      http://www.etymonline.com.)

      The dictionaries would seem to agree with the first
      part of the definition as given by Hammond & Scull:
      "one who protected the fences around lands enclosed".
      What I am curious about is the "for growing hay" part.
      To me, it sounds suspiciously like folk etymology, as
      the OE word _hegeweard_ would have had no particular
      connection to ModE _hay_ 'cut grass'.

      Isn't the more general application--the "later" one
      according to Hammond & Scull--in fact the older one?

      Kind regards,
      Fredrik Ström

      [I can't answer this definitively myself, since Hammond
      & Scull may have been citing a reference work to which
      I don't have access. I will note that the OED appears to
      support Fredrik's interpretation -- it gives the first element
      in _hayward_ as hay(2) 'a hedge, a fence', and glosses the
      word as 'an officer of a manor, township, or parish, having
      charge of the fences and enclosures, esp. to keep cattle
      from breaking through from the common into enclosed
      fields; sometimes, the herdsman of the cattle feeding on
      the common'. This makes no mention of any connection
      with hay(1) 'dried grass'.

      Wright's _English Dialect Dictionary_ and C.T. Onions'
      _Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology_ are both in
      accord with the OED on this point. Perhaps Wayne or
      Christina might be able to comment? -- PHW]
    • Beregond. Anders Stenstr�
      See Tolkien s _Guide to the Names_, Persons, _Hayward_: The word is derived from _hay_ fence (_not_ grass ) + _ward_ guard . (TC:168) - Beregond
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 5, 2005
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        See Tolkien's _Guide to the Names_, Persons, _Hayward_:
        "The word is derived from _hay_ 'fence' (_not_ 'grass') +
        _ward_ 'guard'." (TC:168)

        - Beregond
      • Lukáš Novák
        Recall also Haysend - where too hay = hedge . Lukas
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 5, 2005
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          Recall also "Haysend" - where too "hay"="hedge".

          Lukas

          Beregond. Anders Stenström scripsit:

          > See Tolkien's _Guide to the Names_, Persons, _Hayward_:
          > "The word is derived from _hay_ 'fence' (_not_ 'grass') +
          > _ward_ 'guard'." (TC:168)

          > - Beregond








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        • Wayne G. Hammond
          ... should have pointed to Tolkien s own gloss in the Nomenclature , as indeed we do in our gloss for Hob Hayward (LR p. 998, our p. 655). Our note on p. 35
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
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            In regard to Fredrik and Pat's comments, our gloss:

            > "haywards -- The term _hayward_ originally referred to
            > one who protected the fences around lands enclosed for
            > growing hay (Old English _hegeweard_), later more
            > generally applied to one who prevents cattle from
            > breaking through into enclosed fields with growing
            > crops." (p. 35)

            should have pointed to Tolkien's own gloss in the "Nomenclature", as
            indeed we do in our gloss for "Hob Hayward" (LR p. 998, our p. 655).
            Our note on p. 35 was written early in the project, and forgotten 620
            pages later. Even early on, however, we knew that Hob Hayward would
            be coming along, with a name derived from an occupation, and so for
            our first note consulted the Oxford _Dictionary of English Surnames_
            by Reaney and Wilson, which says: "The original duties of the hayward
            seem to have been to protect the fences round the Lammas lands when
            enclosed for hay (Coulton), hence his name, OE _hegeweard_ 'guardian
            of the fence or hedge'." "Coulton" is nowhere identified by Reaney
            and Wilson (probably the writer on medieval history G.G. Coulton),
            and it may be that an element of folk etymology is present.

            Wayne and Christina
          • F. Strÿfffff6m
            ... The text of the Guide is also printed in the _Reader s Companion_ itself. [The page reference in Beregond s post was added by your humble moderator, who
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
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              Beregond wrote:

              > See Tolkien's _Guide to the Names_, Persons,
              > _Hayward_: "The word is derived from _hay_
              > 'fence' (_not_ 'grass') + _ward_ 'guard'."
              > (TC:168)

              The text of the "Guide" is also printed in the
              _Reader's Companion_ itself.

              [The page reference in Beregond's post was added
              by your humble moderator, who decided to cite the
              _Tolkien Compass_ edition as currently the most
              familiar. The version in _Reader's Companion_ differs
              from this in that "it has been newly transcribed from
              the professional typescript as corrected by Tolkien, with
              reference also to an earlier version in manuscript and
              typescript" (RC:751). I have no doubt that in the future
              the version in the RC will become the standard text of
              reference for Tolkienian linguistics. -- PHW]

              I might point out a possible misprint in this context.
              On p. 655, entry for Hob Hayward, there is a reference
              to a "note for p. 107". However, Hob Hayward is not
              mentioned in the notes for page 107 (although the Hay
              Gate is, as correctly noted in the next entry on page
              655 in the _Reader's Companion_). Possibly the
              reference should read "(See also note for p. 10.)",
              referring to the note for "haywards"?

              Speaking of possible errors in the _Reader's
              Companion_, Magnus Åberg, whose "Analysis of Khuzdul"
              was read at the Omentielva Minya, made an interesting
              observation regarding the following text on page 269:

              "_Azan_ [in _Azanulbizar_] was probably a plural of
              _uzu_ 'dimness, shadow' (cf. _Khazad_ - _Khuzd_)".

              Magnus points out that *_'uzn_ as the singular
              of _'azan_ would fit the pattern of _khuzd_ - _khazad_
              better than _uzu_ does. Could it be that the word was
              misread in the manuscript of the _Nomenclature_?

              Kind regards,
              /Fredrik Ström
            • Wayne G. Hammond
              ... No, I don t think so. Too many details have passed by now to be sure, but I think that we meant to point to the mention of the Hay Gate. If we had meant
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
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                Fredrik wrote:

                > I might point out a possible misprint in this context.
                > On p. 655, entry for Hob Hayward, there is a reference
                > to a "note for p. 107". However, Hob Hayward is not
                > mentioned in the notes for page 107 (although the Hay
                > Gate is, as correctly noted in the next entry on page
                > 655 in the _Reader's Companion_). Possibly the
                > reference should read "(See also note for p. 10.)",
                > referring to the note for "haywards"?

                No, I don't think so. Too many details have passed by now to be sure,
                but I think that we meant to point to the mention of the Hay Gate. If
                we had meant the note for p. 10 we would have picked up on the
                duplication of comments on _hayward_ and dealt with it.

                > Magnus points out that *_'uzn_ as the singular
                > of _'azan_ would fit the pattern of _khuzd_ - _khazad_
                > better than _uzu_ does. Could it be that the word was
                > misread in the manuscript of the _Nomenclature_?

                Yes, it was. It should be _uzn_.

                Wayne
              • F. Str�
                On p. 580 in _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader s Companion_, Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull writes: _athelas_ in the noble tongue [...] In the following
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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                  On p. 580 in _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's
                  Companion_, Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull writes:
                  "_athelas_ in the noble tongue [...] In the following
                  paragraph Aragorn gives the corresponding name of the
                  plant in Quenya, _asea aranion_ 'leaf of kings'."

                  The Sindarin name is discussed on p. 183:
                  "Athelas [...] The first element is problematic;
                  according to Arden R. Smith, an unpublished etymology
                  connects it with Quenya _asea_, as in _asea aranion_
                  'kingsfoil' (but if so, _athelas_ = 'leaf-leaf')."

                  The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
                  attested. The only translation of _asea_ that I know
                  of is the one quoted by William C. Hicklin on the
                  art.fan.tolkien newsgroup:
                  <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/34fc7f494c7ff868/3fad9c3c879f5a2c?lnk=st&q=athelas+hicklin&rnum=1&hl=en#3fad9c3c879f5a2c>

                  "Christopher Tolkien and I have had an ongoing discussion about the origins of
                  this word. It plainly contains -las 'leaf'. It is possible (but entirely
                  speculative) that what Tolkien had in mind at that time (1938-39) was the Old
                  English word aethele 'noble, royal.' This would translate 'kingsfoil,' near
                  enough. At any rate, a very late note (1970 or later) says that Asea (cf.
                  Aragorn, 'asea aranion') was the name in Quenya, regularly adapted and
                  compounded with -las in Sindarin. The plant was known to the medical
                  loremasters of the Noldor. The root is *ATHAYA, 'helpful, kindly,
                  beneficial.' "

                  From this it would seem that _asea_ is in fact an
                  adjective (perhaps substantivized) meaning *'beneficial'
                  and that the 'leaf'(or 'foil') part is understood in the
                  Quenya name:_asea [?lasse] aranion_, 'the beneficial
                  (leaf) of kings'. But perhaps there are other explanations
                  as well.

                  /Fredrik
                • Arden R. Smith
                  ... Strictly speaking, that s true. It s really just an extrapolation, based on the gloss of _athelas_ as kingsfoil and the transparent meaning of _aranion_
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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                    On Nov 13, 2005, at 3:20 PM, F. Ström wrote:

                    > The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
                    > attested.

                    Strictly speaking, that's true. It's really just an extrapolation,
                    based on the gloss of _athelas_ as 'kingsfoil' and the transparent
                    meaning of _aranion_ 'of kings'.

                    > "Christopher Tolkien and I have had an ongoing discussion about the
                    > origins of this word. It plainly contains -las 'leaf'. It is possible
                    > (but entirely speculative) that what Tolkien had in mind at that time
                    > (1938-39) was the Old English word aethele 'noble, royal.' This
                    > would translate 'kingsfoil,' near enough. At any rate, a very late
                    > note (1970 or later) says that Asea (cf. Aragorn, 'asea aranion') was
                    > the name in Quenya, regularly adapted and compounded with -las
                    > in Sindarin. The plant was known to the medical loremasters of the
                    > Noldor. The root is *ATHAYA, 'helpful, kindly, beneficial.' "

                    Interesting. I was unaware of this. The unpublished etymology that I
                    cited derives _athelas_ and _asea_ from a similar form (though spelling
                    TH with thorn), but unfortunately leaves it unglossed. This etymology,
                    incidentally, is considerably earlier than that mentioned by Bill
                    Hicklin, dating from sometime between the publication of the first
                    edition (1954-55) and the publication of the second edition (1965).

                    ***************************************************
                    Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                    Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                    --Elvish proverb

                    ***************************************************
                  • F. Ström
                    ...
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 14, 2005
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                      --- "F. Ström" <frestro@...> skrev:
                      > The translation 'leaf of kings' does not seem to be
                      > attested. The only translation of _asea_ that I know
                      > of is the one quoted by William C. Hicklin on the
                      > art.fan.tolkien newsgroup:
                      >
                      <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/34fc7f494c7ff868/3fad9c3c879f5a2c?lnk=st&q=athelas+hicklin&rnum=1&hl=en#3fad9c3c879f5a2c>

                      The URL in my post was editorially changed, but the
                      reference to the "art.fan.tolkien" newsgroup was not
                      updated to "rec.arts.books.tolkien" along with it.

                      [Quite right; sorry! The link you sent originally didn't work for me, so I googled it myself, and didn't notice the discrepancy. CFH]

                      Forconvenience I quote the first post by William C.
                      Hicklin as well:

                      <http://groups.google.se/group/alt.fan.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/7b7287d31cfa1e77/bdb4b12467dc0ad1?lnk=st>

                      "The herb was known to the Noldor, who termed it
                      "athea" from *ATHAYA 'helpful, kindly, beneficial.' A
                      later sound shift rendered it "asea" (cf. Aragorn's
                      "asea aranion" in "The Houses of Healing.") In
                      Middle-earth the word was converted into regularized
                      Sindarin form as athe- plus -las 'leaf.'"

                      /Fredrik
                    • F. Strÿfffff6m
                      On his Addenda and Corrigenda page to RC (http://bcn.net/~whammond/addenda/readers.html), Wayne Hammond writes: On the Lambengolmor forum,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 2, 2005
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                        On his 'Addenda and Corrigenda' page to RC (http://bcn.net/~whammond/addenda/readers.html), Wayne Hammond writes:

                        'On the Lambengolmor forum, message 850 [...], Fredrik Ström correctly comments that our gloss asëa aranion 'leaf of kings' is not attested in Tolkien's writings. In message 851, however, Arden R. Smith defends this translation as an extrapolation from the gloss of athelas 'kingsfoil' in an unpublished etymology by Tolkien together with 'the transparent meaning of aranion "of kings"'.'

                        What Arden wrote was:
                        >The unpublished etymology that I cited derives _athelas_ and _asea_ from a
                        >similar form [..] but unfortunately leaves it unglossed

                        I think no-one queries the translation *'of kings'. However, in the light of Tolkien's gloss on _athea_ (regularly > _asea_ after the change of Q. _th_ > _s_ described in 'The Shibboleth of Feanor' [XII:331]), I'm not sure that the translation *'leaf' should be defended (and I don't think Arden said so, either). I think that the note on RC:183 is correct except for the parenthesis, '(but if so, _athelas_ = ''leaf-leaf'')', since the attested etymological connection between _athe-_ and _asea_ does not imply that _athe-_ means 'leaf'. In the note on RC:580 ll. 2-3 from bottom, perhaps one should substitute Tolkien's actual gloss ('beneficial') for 'leaf' (or simply omit the words 'leaf of kings')?

                        /Fredrik



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • William Cloud Hicklin
                        You know, I ve felt guilty for the better part of a decade for my unthinking and unauthorized posting of that snippet on Usenet- especially since soon
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 26, 2006
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                          You know, I've felt guilty for the better part of a decade for
                          my unthinking and unauthorized posting of that snippet on
                          Usenet- especially since soon therafter the copyright-law war
                          erupted with the Salo/Star/Fauskanger axis. Fortunately it seems
                          that it hasn't spread that far, since even Arden appears to have
                          been unaware of it (although it has turned up in a couple of
                          online "encyclopedias").

                          In any event, it's out, and surely there would be no harm if Wayne
                          Hammond and Christina Scull were to use it, since they carry the
                          Imprimatur.

                          I suspect that _asea aranion/athelas_ is one of those Q-S pairs
                          that aren't literal translations. Now, I'm no linguist; but we
                          can at least be certain that _asea_ and _athe-_ are equivalent
                          elements, and, as Frederik points out, that the Quenya assumed
                          or omitted the leaf-element. Or, viewed the other way around,
                          that the leaf-element was added by the Exiles when they formed
                          their Sindarin equivalent (acc. to the late note, the plant was
                          known to the medical loremasters of the Noldor- with no
                          indication whether the Sindar were aware of its properties, or
                          even if it was native to Middle-earth). The snippet's wording
                          has _asea_ regularly > _athe-_, "compounded with _-las_," which
                          to me suggests that the _-las_ element only entered with the
                          Sindarin conversion. Why would this be? Another note cited by
                          Wayne and Christina indicates that only the leaves were used,
                          which may be relevant. Or perhaps the linguistic loremasters
                          found "athe" alone to be ugly?

                          [Tolkien wrote in his note on "Stress" in Section I of Appendix E
                          that words in which the stress falls on the third syllable from the
                          end -- e.g. _Denethor, Fëanor_ -- "are favoured in the Eldarin
                          languages, especially Quenya." It seems natural then that the
                          medical loremasters of the Noldor, whose native tongue was
                          Quenya, would expand _athe-_ to the more euphonious (not to
                          mention distinctive) _athelas_. PHW]

                          One might speculate whether "aranion" was a pre- or post-
                          Downfall Numenorean addition ("balm" > "kingsbalm"), since the
                          specific association of healing with the King appears to have
                          been theirs, not the Elves'. This leads to yet another
                          question- whether Ad/CS _kingsfoil_ followed or in fact underlay
                          the hypothesised Num. addition of _aranion_ .

                          -- William Cloud Hicklin

                          > I think no-one queries the translation *'of kings'. However,
                          in the light of Tolkien's gloss on _athea_ (regularly > _asea_
                          after the change of Q. _th_ > _s_ described in 'The Shibboleth
                          of Feanor' [XII:331]), I'm not sure that the translation
                          *'leaf' should be defended (and I don't think Arden said so,
                          either). I think that the note on RC:183 is correct except for
                          the parenthesis, '(but if so, _athelas_ = ''leaf-leaf'')',
                          since the attested etymological connection between _athe-_ and
                          _asea_ does not imply that _athe-_ means 'leaf'. In the note on
                          RC:580 ll. 2-3 from bottom, perhaps one should substitute
                          Tolkien's actual gloss ('beneficial') for 'leaf' (or simply omit
                          the words 'leaf of kings')?
                          >
                          > /Fredrik
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