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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: _Isilme_ & _Vardilme_

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  • ejk@free.fr
    Not only do we have _Isilme_ — as a female name I would translate it in English Moonshine , sounds more feminine to me than just Moonlight ;-) — but
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
      Not only do we have _Isilme_ — as a female name I would translate it in English
      'Moonshine', sounds more feminine to me than just 'Moonlight' ;-) — but also its
      male counterpart _Isilmo_ *'Moon(light)-one' (UT:220,226).


      Edouard Kloczko
    • Patrick H. Wynne
      In my post (message #820) on the name _Axantur_ I wrote that this name apparently consists of Q. _axan_ law, rule, commandment ... Edouard Kloczko mentioned
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
        In my post (message #820) on the name _Axantur_ I wrote that this
        name apparently consists of Q. _axan_ 'law, rule, commandment'
        (XI:399) + _tur_ 'lord, master', and concluded:

        > Since _axani_ were not simply human laws or rules but rather "laws,
        > rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru" (VT39:30) -- the Ten
        > Commandments might thus properly be termed _axani_ -- _Axantur_,
        > lit. *'Law-lord', was probably intended as *'Lord who acts in
        > accordance with the laws/commandments of Eru'.

        Edouard Kloczko mentioned to me off-list that he would translate
        _Axantur_ instead as 'Theologian', and I think this is much closer
        to the mark than my suggestion above. The literal sense of the
        name would be *'Law-master', i.e. 'one who has mastered (acquired
        thorough knowledge of) the laws of Eru'.

        Edouard's interpretation is even more compelling in light of the
        name of Axantur's father, _Nolondil_ *'Lover of Wisdom' (UT:210).
        According to "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", the prefix _ñolo-_ in
        _Ñolofinwë_ (Quenya name of Fingolfin) "was the stem of words
        referring to wisdom" (XII:344). A footnote to this remark adds:
        "'Wisdom' -- but not in the sense 'sagacity, sound judgment (founded
        on experience and sufficient knowledge)'; 'Knowledge' would be
        nearer, or 'Philosophy' in its older applications which included
        Science" (XII:359-60). It seems, then, that _Nolondil_ could best
        be translated as *'Philosopher'; Greek _philosophos_ 'lover of
        wisdom', from _philein_ 'to love' and _sophos_ 'wise', closely
        matches the literal etymology of the Quenya form.

        Thus Axantur son of Nolondil appears to be 'Theologian' son of
        'Philosopher'. Interestingly, both Nolondil and Axantur were youngest
        sons, each with elder brothers preceding them in the line of
        succession to the throne. The unlikelihood of their ever being
        required to take up the kingship of Númenor, Tolkien seems to
        imply, left them with more opportunities to indulge in purely
        intellectual pursuits.

        -- Patrick H. Wynne
      • laurifindil
        A question remains : were _Axantur_ * Theologian , and _Nolondil_ * Philosopher Númenorian Proper Names only or also lexemes of Quenya? I don t remember
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
          A question remains : were _Axantur_ *'Theologian', and _Nolondil_
          *'Philosopher' Númenorian Proper Names only or also lexemes of

          I don't remember that an Elf ever bore a name in _-ndur_, or _-ndil_
          in the Corpus, only Númenoreans did.

          Then, _Nolondil_ (< _ñolo-ndil_) was a Proper Name used by
          Númenoreans, not a lexeme of Quenya, used for a 'philosopher',
          as far as I can tell.

          We have other names in _-tur_ 'master, lord', _Ciryatur, Sorontur,
          Minyatur_, etc. But then _-tur_ is not used as a suffix in Quenya
          word-formation only as a base (_turkildi_, V:47; _Turko_, XII:352).
          Then again, _Axantur_ was a Proper Name used by Númenoreans
          (? and maybe Elves), not a lexeme of Quenya.

          Edouard Kloczko

          [I don't see any compelling reason to suppose that _axantur_
          and _nolondil_ were not simply the usual common nouns used
          in Quenya to mean 'theologian' and 'philosoper'. I cannot find
          any examples of a common noun ending in _-(n)tur_, though
          this is not necessarily an indication that this suffix was only used
          in personal names. Quenya unquestionally _did_ form common
          nouns with _-ndil_ and _-ndur_, e.g., _arandil_ 'king's friend,
          royalist' and _arandur_ 'king's servant, minister' (L:386).

          A note to "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" states that "Nerdanel's
          father was an 'Aulendil' [> 'Aulendur']" (XII:365), and the use
          of the indefinite article _an_ before _Aulendil/Aulendur_ seems
          to indicate that this was perceived as a common noun, though
          capitalized since it begins with a proper name. (_Aulendur_ is
          glossed "'Servant of Aulë', sc. one who was devoted to that
          Vala".) Compare English _Luddite_ 'a person opposed to new
          technology', a common noun capitalized because it derives
          from the name of Ned _Lud_, an early opponent of technology
          notorious for destroying machinery.

          The same note cited above shows that some Elves did bear
          personal names in _-ndil_, for it is said that Nerdanel's father
          Sarmo was more widely known as _Urundil_ 'copper-lover'
          (XII:366). But there seems no doubt that the endings _-ndil_,
          _-ndur_ were far more frequently used in the formation of the
          names of Men than they were in the names of Elves. -- PHW]
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