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Re: _Isilme_ & _Vardilme_

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  • Patrick H. Wynne
    ... I should also have noted that a clear example of this feminine agentive _-me_ appears in the _Etymologies_ s.v. SER- love, be fond of (of liking,
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 5, 2005
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      I wrote, in commenting on David Giraudeau's query:

      > However, I think it more likely that _-me_ in _Vardilme_ is instead
      > the feminine equivalent of agentive _-mo_, seen in such names as
      > _Ulmo_ 'The Pourer, The Rainer' (S:352) and _Irmo_ 'Desirer'
      > (S:336). Also cp. (masc.) _nilmo_ 'friend' < (N)DIL- in the
      > _Etymologies_.

      I should also have noted that a clear example of this feminine
      agentive _-me_ appears in the _Etymologies_ s.v. SER- 'love, be
      fond of (of liking, friendship)': _serme_ 'friend', feminine form
      of masc. _sermo_.

      Moreover, if we are to consider it a secondary possibility that
      _Vardilme_ might end instead in the abstract ending _-me_
      (the ending _-dilme_ perhaps being a form of Q. _nilme_
      'friendship'), then we should also consider the secondary
      possibility that _Isilme_ might end in fem. _-me_, i.e., _Isilme_
      = 'Moon Woman' (Q. _Isil_ 'Moon').

      This having been said, application of Occam's Razor suggests
      that _Isilme_ is probably 'Moonlight' and _Vardilme_ probably
      means *'Devoted to Varda'.

      -- Patrick H. Wynne
    • ejk@free.fr
      Not only do we have _Isilme_ — as a female name I would translate it in English Moonshine , sounds more feminine to me than just Moonlight ;-) — but
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
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        Not only do we have _Isilme_ — as a female name I would translate it in English
        'Moonshine', sounds more feminine to me than just 'Moonlight' ;-) — but also its
        male counterpart _Isilmo_ *'Moon(light)-one' (UT:220,226).

        Namárië,

        Edouard Kloczko
      • Patrick H. Wynne
        In my post (message #820) on the name _Axantur_ I wrote that this name apparently consists of Q. _axan_ law, rule, commandment ... Edouard Kloczko mentioned
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
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          In my post (message #820) on the name _Axantur_ I wrote that this
          name apparently consists of Q. _axan_ 'law, rule, commandment'
          (XI:399) + _tur_ 'lord, master', and concluded:

          > Since _axani_ were not simply human laws or rules but rather "laws,
          > rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru" (VT39:30) -- the Ten
          > Commandments might thus properly be termed _axani_ -- _Axantur_,
          > lit. *'Law-lord', was probably intended as *'Lord who acts in
          > accordance with the laws/commandments of Eru'.

          Edouard Kloczko mentioned to me off-list that he would translate
          _Axantur_ instead as 'Theologian', and I think this is much closer
          to the mark than my suggestion above. The literal sense of the
          name would be *'Law-master', i.e. 'one who has mastered (acquired
          thorough knowledge of) the laws of Eru'.

          Edouard's interpretation is even more compelling in light of the
          name of Axantur's father, _Nolondil_ *'Lover of Wisdom' (UT:210).
          According to "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", the prefix _ñolo-_ in
          _Ñolofinwë_ (Quenya name of Fingolfin) "was the stem of words
          referring to wisdom" (XII:344). A footnote to this remark adds:
          "'Wisdom' -- but not in the sense 'sagacity, sound judgment (founded
          on experience and sufficient knowledge)'; 'Knowledge' would be
          nearer, or 'Philosophy' in its older applications which included
          Science" (XII:359-60). It seems, then, that _Nolondil_ could best
          be translated as *'Philosopher'; Greek _philosophos_ 'lover of
          wisdom', from _philein_ 'to love' and _sophos_ 'wise', closely
          matches the literal etymology of the Quenya form.

          Thus Axantur son of Nolondil appears to be 'Theologian' son of
          'Philosopher'. Interestingly, both Nolondil and Axantur were youngest
          sons, each with elder brothers preceding them in the line of
          succession to the throne. The unlikelihood of their ever being
          required to take up the kingship of Númenor, Tolkien seems to
          imply, left them with more opportunities to indulge in purely
          intellectual pursuits.

          -- Patrick H. Wynne
        • laurifindil
          A question remains : were _Axantur_ * Theologian , and _Nolondil_ * Philosopher Númenorian Proper Names only or also lexemes of Quenya? I don t remember
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
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            A question remains : were _Axantur_ *'Theologian', and _Nolondil_
            *'Philosopher' Númenorian Proper Names only or also lexemes of
            Quenya?

            I don't remember that an Elf ever bore a name in _-ndur_, or _-ndil_
            in the Corpus, only Númenoreans did.

            Then, _Nolondil_ (< _ñolo-ndil_) was a Proper Name used by
            Númenoreans, not a lexeme of Quenya, used for a 'philosopher',
            as far as I can tell.

            We have other names in _-tur_ 'master, lord', _Ciryatur, Sorontur,
            Minyatur_, etc. But then _-tur_ is not used as a suffix in Quenya
            word-formation only as a base (_turkildi_, V:47; _Turko_, XII:352).
            Then again, _Axantur_ was a Proper Name used by Númenoreans
            (? and maybe Elves), not a lexeme of Quenya.

            Edouard Kloczko

            [I don't see any compelling reason to suppose that _axantur_
            and _nolondil_ were not simply the usual common nouns used
            in Quenya to mean 'theologian' and 'philosoper'. I cannot find
            any examples of a common noun ending in _-(n)tur_, though
            this is not necessarily an indication that this suffix was only used
            in personal names. Quenya unquestionally _did_ form common
            nouns with _-ndil_ and _-ndur_, e.g., _arandil_ 'king's friend,
            royalist' and _arandur_ 'king's servant, minister' (L:386).

            A note to "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" states that "Nerdanel's
            father was an 'Aulendil' [> 'Aulendur']" (XII:365), and the use
            of the indefinite article _an_ before _Aulendil/Aulendur_ seems
            to indicate that this was perceived as a common noun, though
            capitalized since it begins with a proper name. (_Aulendur_ is
            glossed "'Servant of Aulë', sc. one who was devoted to that
            Vala".) Compare English _Luddite_ 'a person opposed to new
            technology', a common noun capitalized because it derives
            from the name of Ned _Lud_, an early opponent of technology
            notorious for destroying machinery.

            The same note cited above shows that some Elves did bear
            personal names in _-ndil_, for it is said that Nerdanel's father
            Sarmo was more widely known as _Urundil_ 'copper-lover'
            (XII:366). But there seems no doubt that the endings _-ndil_,
            _-ndur_ were far more frequently used in the formation of the
            names of Men than they were in the names of Elves. -- PHW]
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