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_Isilme_ & _Vardilme_

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  • Giraudeau David
    Patrick H. Wynne wrote, regarding the chart ... Although _Isilme_ has an appropriate meaning, don t you think it could have a link with
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 4, 2005
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      "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote, regarding the chart
      of "The earlier generations of the Line of Elros" (UT:210):

      > ... many these names are readily translatable (e.g. _Manwendil_,
      > _Aulendil_, _Oromendil_) and present unique linguistic information
      > (e.g. the name _Vardilmë_ (Tar-Amandil's sister) evidently provides
      > the feminine form of the common masculine ending _-(n)dil)_,
      > and means *'Devoted to Varda').

      Although _Isilme_ has an appropriate meaning, don't you think it
      could have a link with the meaning of _Vardilme_ in that case ?

      David Giraudeau

      [I don't think so -- _Isilme_ as a personal name on the chart is
      probably identical to _isilme_ 'moonlight' (MC:222-23), which
      occurs in the late version of "The Last Ark" dating to the last
      decade of Tolkien's life, and this appears to end in the noun
      suffix _-me_ seen in a large number of words describing abstract
      concepts, e.g. _undume_ 'abyss', _yaime_ 'wailing', and _kelume_
      'flowing, flood (tide), stream', also in the late "Ark" poem and
      glossary. The _Etymologies_ does give abstract _nilme_ 'friendship'
      as a derivative of NIL-, (N)DIL- 'friend', and this _could_ be present
      in an otherwise unattested suffixed form *_-(n)dilme_ in _Vardilme_,
      which would then mean *'Friendship of Varda'. If so, then _Isilme_
      and _Vardilme_ would both share the abstract ending _-me_,
      though beyond that there would be no connection in _meaning_.

      However, I think it more likely that _-me_ in _Vardilme_ is instead
      the feminine equivalent of agentive _-mo_, seen in such names as
      _Ulmo_ 'The Pourer, The Rainer' (S:352) and _Irmo_ 'Desirer' (S:336).
      Also cp. (masc.) _nilmo_ 'friend' < (N)DIL- in the _Etymologies_. On
      the basis of Tolkien's later gloss of (N)DIL as 'to love, be devoted to'
      (L:386), _-dilme_ is probably *'she who loves, she who is devoted (to)',
      hence my proposed gloss of _Vardilme_ as *'Devoted to Varda'.
      -- PHW]
    • Patrick H. Wynne
      ... I should also have noted that a clear example of this feminine agentive _-me_ appears in the _Etymologies_ s.v. SER- love, be fond of (of liking,
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 5, 2005
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        I wrote, in commenting on David Giraudeau's query:

        > However, I think it more likely that _-me_ in _Vardilme_ is instead
        > the feminine equivalent of agentive _-mo_, seen in such names as
        > _Ulmo_ 'The Pourer, The Rainer' (S:352) and _Irmo_ 'Desirer'
        > (S:336). Also cp. (masc.) _nilmo_ 'friend' < (N)DIL- in the
        > _Etymologies_.

        I should also have noted that a clear example of this feminine
        agentive _-me_ appears in the _Etymologies_ s.v. SER- 'love, be
        fond of (of liking, friendship)': _serme_ 'friend', feminine form
        of masc. _sermo_.

        Moreover, if we are to consider it a secondary possibility that
        _Vardilme_ might end instead in the abstract ending _-me_
        (the ending _-dilme_ perhaps being a form of Q. _nilme_
        'friendship'), then we should also consider the secondary
        possibility that _Isilme_ might end in fem. _-me_, i.e., _Isilme_
        = 'Moon Woman' (Q. _Isil_ 'Moon').

        This having been said, application of Occam's Razor suggests
        that _Isilme_ is probably 'Moonlight' and _Vardilme_ probably
        means *'Devoted to Varda'.

        -- Patrick H. Wynne
      • ejk@free.fr
        Not only do we have _Isilme_ — as a female name I would translate it in English Moonshine , sounds more feminine to me than just Moonlight ;-) — but
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
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          Not only do we have _Isilme_ — as a female name I would translate it in English
          'Moonshine', sounds more feminine to me than just 'Moonlight' ;-) — but also its
          male counterpart _Isilmo_ *'Moon(light)-one' (UT:220,226).

          Namárië,

          Edouard Kloczko
        • Patrick H. Wynne
          In my post (message #820) on the name _Axantur_ I wrote that this name apparently consists of Q. _axan_ law, rule, commandment ... Edouard Kloczko mentioned
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
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            In my post (message #820) on the name _Axantur_ I wrote that this
            name apparently consists of Q. _axan_ 'law, rule, commandment'
            (XI:399) + _tur_ 'lord, master', and concluded:

            > Since _axani_ were not simply human laws or rules but rather "laws,
            > rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru" (VT39:30) -- the Ten
            > Commandments might thus properly be termed _axani_ -- _Axantur_,
            > lit. *'Law-lord', was probably intended as *'Lord who acts in
            > accordance with the laws/commandments of Eru'.

            Edouard Kloczko mentioned to me off-list that he would translate
            _Axantur_ instead as 'Theologian', and I think this is much closer
            to the mark than my suggestion above. The literal sense of the
            name would be *'Law-master', i.e. 'one who has mastered (acquired
            thorough knowledge of) the laws of Eru'.

            Edouard's interpretation is even more compelling in light of the
            name of Axantur's father, _Nolondil_ *'Lover of Wisdom' (UT:210).
            According to "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", the prefix _ñolo-_ in
            _Ñolofinwë_ (Quenya name of Fingolfin) "was the stem of words
            referring to wisdom" (XII:344). A footnote to this remark adds:
            "'Wisdom' -- but not in the sense 'sagacity, sound judgment (founded
            on experience and sufficient knowledge)'; 'Knowledge' would be
            nearer, or 'Philosophy' in its older applications which included
            Science" (XII:359-60). It seems, then, that _Nolondil_ could best
            be translated as *'Philosopher'; Greek _philosophos_ 'lover of
            wisdom', from _philein_ 'to love' and _sophos_ 'wise', closely
            matches the literal etymology of the Quenya form.

            Thus Axantur son of Nolondil appears to be 'Theologian' son of
            'Philosopher'. Interestingly, both Nolondil and Axantur were youngest
            sons, each with elder brothers preceding them in the line of
            succession to the throne. The unlikelihood of their ever being
            required to take up the kingship of Númenor, Tolkien seems to
            imply, left them with more opportunities to indulge in purely
            intellectual pursuits.

            -- Patrick H. Wynne
          • laurifindil
            A question remains : were _Axantur_ * Theologian , and _Nolondil_ * Philosopher Númenorian Proper Names only or also lexemes of Quenya? I don t remember
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 6, 2005
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              A question remains : were _Axantur_ *'Theologian', and _Nolondil_
              *'Philosopher' Númenorian Proper Names only or also lexemes of
              Quenya?

              I don't remember that an Elf ever bore a name in _-ndur_, or _-ndil_
              in the Corpus, only Númenoreans did.

              Then, _Nolondil_ (< _ñolo-ndil_) was a Proper Name used by
              Númenoreans, not a lexeme of Quenya, used for a 'philosopher',
              as far as I can tell.

              We have other names in _-tur_ 'master, lord', _Ciryatur, Sorontur,
              Minyatur_, etc. But then _-tur_ is not used as a suffix in Quenya
              word-formation only as a base (_turkildi_, V:47; _Turko_, XII:352).
              Then again, _Axantur_ was a Proper Name used by Númenoreans
              (? and maybe Elves), not a lexeme of Quenya.

              Edouard Kloczko

              [I don't see any compelling reason to suppose that _axantur_
              and _nolondil_ were not simply the usual common nouns used
              in Quenya to mean 'theologian' and 'philosoper'. I cannot find
              any examples of a common noun ending in _-(n)tur_, though
              this is not necessarily an indication that this suffix was only used
              in personal names. Quenya unquestionally _did_ form common
              nouns with _-ndil_ and _-ndur_, e.g., _arandil_ 'king's friend,
              royalist' and _arandur_ 'king's servant, minister' (L:386).

              A note to "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" states that "Nerdanel's
              father was an 'Aulendil' [> 'Aulendur']" (XII:365), and the use
              of the indefinite article _an_ before _Aulendil/Aulendur_ seems
              to indicate that this was perceived as a common noun, though
              capitalized since it begins with a proper name. (_Aulendur_ is
              glossed "'Servant of Aulë', sc. one who was devoted to that
              Vala".) Compare English _Luddite_ 'a person opposed to new
              technology', a common noun capitalized because it derives
              from the name of Ned _Lud_, an early opponent of technology
              notorious for destroying machinery.

              The same note cited above shows that some Elves did bear
              personal names in _-ndil_, for it is said that Nerdanel's father
              Sarmo was more widely known as _Urundil_ 'copper-lover'
              (XII:366). But there seems no doubt that the endings _-ndil_,
              _-ndur_ were far more frequently used in the formation of the
              names of Men than they were in the names of Elves. -- PHW]
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