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Re: Various umlauts in Sindarin plurals

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  • Anders Stenström
    ... Tolkien gave the plural of _orod_ as _eryd_, _ered_ (in TC: Guide to the Names in _The Lord of the Rings_ Places, s.v._Ashen Mountains_), so it would
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 18 1:16 PM
      Tchitrec (>>) and Pavel Iosad (>) wrote:

      >> Indeed _eryd_ becomes much more common in _The War of the Jewels_,
      >> though _ered_ does not totally disappears. Possibly Tolkien
      >> felt "compelled" to keep _ered_ because it had appeared in LR.
      >
      > But he apparently didn't use the opporunity of the second edition of LR
      > to emend it, as he did with _vánier_ and _omentilmo_.
      >
      >> . . . Perhaps phrases like _Ered Wethrin_ were treated like compounds :
      >> _*orodwathren_ would regularly yield the pl. _*eredwethrin_.
      >
      > What of _ered e-mbar nîn_?
      > The answer is simple (I'd say) - Tolkien was vacillating. As always.

      Tolkien gave the plural of _orod_ as "_eryd_, _ered_" (in TC: "Guide to the
      Names in _The Lord of the Rings_" Places, s.v._Ashen Mountains_), so it would
      seem to be a matter of morphological variation, rather than vacillation.

      Meneg suilaid,

      Beregond

      P.S. When writing the above I looked up the list of abbreviations to be used on
      this list, to find the one for "Guide . . .": There was not one, but the book
      in which it appears has an abbreviation of its own. To my -- perhaps too
      angular -- way of thinking this seems skewed. The relevant sources for which
      we need abbreviations should be works by J.R.R. Tolkien. It seems to me both
      logical and practical to write GN for "Guide to the Names in _The Lord
      of the Rings_".

      [But then we would have still to note that GN is published in TC; and
      furthermore, all page references are to TC, not GN. Personally, I would cite
      a GN reference as either "TC:xxx s.v. Entry" or "in Tolkien's "Guide to Names",
      s.v. Entry (TC:xxx)". Carl]
    • Pavel Iosad
      Hello, Anders Stenström wrote: [...] [Tchitrec] ... Also, we have _y_ in hardly differing things like _Emyn Muil_ [myself] ... [Anders] ... Good point.
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 19 2:40 AM
        Hello,
        Anders Stenström wrote:

        [...]
        [Tchitrec]
        > >> . . . Perhaps phrases like _Ered Wethrin_ were treated
        > like compounds :
        > >> _*orodwathren_ would regularly yield the pl. _*eredwethrin_.

        Also, we have _y_ in hardly differing things like _Emyn Muil_

        [myself]
        > > What of _ered e-mbar nîn_?
        > > The answer is simple (I'd say) - Tolkien was vacillating. As always.

        [Anders]
        > Tolkien gave the plural of _orod_ as "_eryd_, _ered_" (in TC:
        > "Guide to the
        > Names in _The Lord of the Rings_" Places, s.v._Ashen
        > Mountains_),

        Good point. Objection withdrawn, more questions raised below.

        > so it would seem to be a matter of morphological variation,
        > rather than vacillation.

        What kind of variation?
        Can it have been dialectal variation rather than purely morphological?
        _Eryd_ appears in First-Age writings of _The War of the Jewels_, but
        _ered_ in _The Lord of the Rings_. Perhaps we can write it off to the
        Gondor dialect, but then, confer LR:1089, where Sindarin _y_ is
        explicitly stated to be pronounced as _i_ in Gondor. Why not _*erid_,
        _*enid_ then? A wild guess is that the Mannish Sindarin of Númenor
        somehow differed from First-Age Beleriand Sindarin (the Western dialect,
        apparently), but this has virtually no proof in the texts whatsoever,
        and perhaps not to be taken seriously. After all, _ered e-mbar nîn_ is
        First Age as well.

        Any takers?

        Pavel
        --
        Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

        'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
        --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
      • tchitrec
        The explanations of my model for I-affection in Sindarin were not very clear, because I did not mention which syllables are supposed to be affected, which is
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 20 12:47 PM
          The explanations of my model for I-affection in Sindarin were not
          very clear, because I did not mention which syllables are supposed to
          be affected, which is very important :-(
          My apologies.

          With more details, it would be :
          - first, raising of e to i and o to u *in the penult* (later final
          syllable) before final i
          - later, fronting of the back vowels a, o, u to e, ö, y respectively
          before a syllable containing an i, and this *everywhere in the word*
          - still later, final i becomes non syllabic (perhaps like the final i
          of Rumanian _lupi_ "wolves", pl. of _lup_ "wolf") and in some cases
          anticipated - more precisely when the preceding syllable contains e,
          ô (long open a-like o, printed o with macron and hook in XI), û,
          giving respectively ei (later ai), oi (later oe), ui.

          Some examples might be useful (j stands for non syllabic i):
          Common Eldarin _*ñgolodoi_ > _*ñgolodî_ > _*ñgoluði_ > _*ñgölyðj_ >
          S. _Gölydh_ (written "Goelydh"), later _Gelydh_ (XI:364 for the
          archaic form "Goelydh" ; for the later form, see for example the
          place name _Annon-in-Gelydh_, Silmarillion Index entry _Golodhrim_,
          or UT:18)
          CE _*atarî_ > _*atari_ > _*ederi_ > _*ederj_ > _*edeir_ > S._edair_
          (attested in the compound _Edenedair_ "Fathers of Men", X:373)
          CE(?) _*orotî_ > _*oroti_ > _*orudi_ > _*örydj > S. _eryd_ (attested
          numerous times in XI, e.g. in _Eryd Engrin_ "Iron Mountains", XI:6)
          CE _*do3rai_ > _*dôrai_ > _*dûrî_ > _*dûri > _*dûrj_ > S. _duir_ (in
          _Emyn Duir_, UT:434)

          (The chronology of consonant changes is hypothetical - it can be
          reconstructed differently.)
          I hope this is clearer.

          Nai Anar caluva tielmanna !
          Tchitrec
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