Re: Various umlauts in Sindarin plurals
- Tchitrec (>>) and Pavel Iosad (>) wrote:
>> Indeed _eryd_ becomes much more common in _The War of the Jewels_,Tolkien gave the plural of _orod_ as "_eryd_, _ered_" (in TC: "Guide to the
>> though _ered_ does not totally disappears. Possibly Tolkien
>> felt "compelled" to keep _ered_ because it had appeared in LR.
> But he apparently didn't use the opporunity of the second edition of LR
> to emend it, as he did with _vánier_ and _omentilmo_.
>> . . . Perhaps phrases like _Ered Wethrin_ were treated like compounds :
>> _*orodwathren_ would regularly yield the pl. _*eredwethrin_.
> What of _ered e-mbar nîn_?
> The answer is simple (I'd say) - Tolkien was vacillating. As always.
Names in _The Lord of the Rings_" Places, s.v._Ashen Mountains_), so it would
seem to be a matter of morphological variation, rather than vacillation.
P.S. When writing the above I looked up the list of abbreviations to be used on
this list, to find the one for "Guide . . .": There was not one, but the book
in which it appears has an abbreviation of its own. To my -- perhaps too
angular -- way of thinking this seems skewed. The relevant sources for which
we need abbreviations should be works by J.R.R. Tolkien. It seems to me both
logical and practical to write GN for "Guide to the Names in _The Lord
of the Rings_".
[But then we would have still to note that GN is published in TC; and
furthermore, all page references are to TC, not GN. Personally, I would cite
a GN reference as either "TC:xxx s.v. Entry" or "in Tolkien's "Guide to Names",
s.v. Entry (TC:xxx)". Carl]
Anders Stenström wrote:
> >> . . . Perhaps phrases like _Ered Wethrin_ were treatedAlso, we have _y_ in hardly differing things like _Emyn Muil_
> like compounds :
> >> _*orodwathren_ would regularly yield the pl. _*eredwethrin_.
> > What of _ered e-mbar nîn_?[Anders]
> > The answer is simple (I'd say) - Tolkien was vacillating. As always.
> Tolkien gave the plural of _orod_ as "_eryd_, _ered_" (in TC:Good point. Objection withdrawn, more questions raised below.
> "Guide to the
> Names in _The Lord of the Rings_" Places, s.v._Ashen
> so it would seem to be a matter of morphological variation,What kind of variation?
> rather than vacillation.
Can it have been dialectal variation rather than purely morphological?
_Eryd_ appears in First-Age writings of _The War of the Jewels_, but
_ered_ in _The Lord of the Rings_. Perhaps we can write it off to the
Gondor dialect, but then, confer LR:1089, where Sindarin _y_ is
explicitly stated to be pronounced as _i_ in Gondor. Why not _*erid_,
_*enid_ then? A wild guess is that the Mannish Sindarin of Númenor
somehow differed from First-Age Beleriand Sindarin (the Western dialect,
apparently), but this has virtually no proof in the texts whatsoever,
and perhaps not to be taken seriously. After all, _ered e-mbar nîn_ is
First Age as well.
Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...
'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
--JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
- The explanations of my model for I-affection in Sindarin were not
very clear, because I did not mention which syllables are supposed to
be affected, which is very important :-(
With more details, it would be :
- first, raising of e to i and o to u *in the penult* (later final
syllable) before final i
- later, fronting of the back vowels a, o, u to e, ö, y respectively
before a syllable containing an i, and this *everywhere in the word*
- still later, final i becomes non syllabic (perhaps like the final i
of Rumanian _lupi_ "wolves", pl. of _lup_ "wolf") and in some cases
anticipated - more precisely when the preceding syllable contains e,
ô (long open a-like o, printed o with macron and hook in XI), û,
giving respectively ei (later ai), oi (later oe), ui.
Some examples might be useful (j stands for non syllabic i):
Common Eldarin _*ñgolodoi_ > _*ñgolodî_ > _*ñgoluði_ > _*ñgölyðj_ >
S. _Gölydh_ (written "Goelydh"), later _Gelydh_ (XI:364 for the
archaic form "Goelydh" ; for the later form, see for example the
place name _Annon-in-Gelydh_, Silmarillion Index entry _Golodhrim_,
CE _*atarî_ > _*atari_ > _*ederi_ > _*ederj_ > _*edeir_ > S._edair_
(attested in the compound _Edenedair_ "Fathers of Men", X:373)
CE(?) _*orotî_ > _*oroti_ > _*orudi_ > _*örydj > S. _eryd_ (attested
numerous times in XI, e.g. in _Eryd Engrin_ "Iron Mountains", XI:6)
CE _*do3rai_ > _*dôrai_ > _*dûrî_ > _*dûri > _*dûrj_ > S. _duir_ (in
_Emyn Duir_, UT:434)
(The chronology of consonant changes is hypothetical - it can be
I hope this is clearer.
Nai Anar caluva tielmanna !