Re: Various umlauts in Sindarin plurals
- Hello, Iosad!
Thank u for comments. I will reply to some keeping my original message.
>> I think that *orodi regularly became *öröd, which as an isolated wordA: where do you have a stressed _o_ yielding _y_? In monosyllables?
>> w[oul]d h[a]v[e] become *eryd, but that in pre-stress positions, like
>> Eredwethion, Ered Nimrais, Ered Lithui, Ered Luin it became ered.
> I don't think this is plausible. We obviously have _o_ in stressed
> positions yielding both _y_ and _e_. I also think that in hypothetical
> compounds like Ered Wethrin, the main stress would fall on _Ered_, as it
> is syntactically the head, and _*Gwathren_ the modifier.
B: the main stress wd certainly not be on the syntactical "head" but precisely
on the "modifier" in any natural context. èredwéthrin, not éredwèthrin
(acute==main stress, grave==subordinate stress).
>> And in the pl[ural] of orod it seems the st[atus] constr[uctus] f[or]mAdmitted.
>> ousted the fully stressed f[or]m, there being so many mountains, that
>> just saying "the mountains" w[oul]d be meaningless in most naturally
>> occurring contexts.
> I beg to disagree. There are plenty of legal contexts for saying _the
> mountains_, like _Beren wandered through the mountains to Doriath_,
> _Morgoth was unable to discover Turgon's stronghold in the mountains_
> and so on and so forth.
>> The problem is: Christopher did not always know what was theTrue. But one can rely, from what changes are recorded, that he worked for
>> latest idea of his Father and how much he had changed and
>> invented since, to restore consistency. And whether he had
>> changed s[ome]th[ing] in this or that aspect, required by
>> another change but not recorded.
> If it is not recorded, no one can say what Tolkien intended.
consistency. If he made a change he must have considered what other changes it
involved, but in many cases not have had the time to record them. And there
must have been afterthoughts. If a not recorded change is logical considering
recorded changes and linguistic facts published in JRRT's LotR, it wd hv been
in his intention that it were added. Only, sometimes there wd hv been two
alternative ways of resolving the apparent inconsistency, and only JRRT wd hv
known wh one to use. And that is a problem. I am not saying we can say what
JRRT intended (except by the philological method he used himself in editing old
poems: e g replacing in a line of Beowulf the non-allitterative and common
"worod" (infantry troup) by the alllitterating and poetical "éorod" (cavalry
troup), because that must hv been what the poet intended). But we can say he
did NOT intend total chaos. He did not hv time to tidy it all up, to bring all
manuscripts up to date and so, but he intended to. And that has placed his son
Christopher in some dilemmas. In publishing Silmarillion he smothed things out,
showing the consistency JRRT worked to achieve. In publishing the History of
Middle-earth series he has done the opposite, showing the vacillations before
achieving final consistency. This goes both for the linguistic and the other
aspects of the work.
Hans Georg Lundahl
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- Tchitrec (>>) and Pavel Iosad (>) wrote:
>> Indeed _eryd_ becomes much more common in _The War of the Jewels_,Tolkien gave the plural of _orod_ as "_eryd_, _ered_" (in TC: "Guide to the
>> though _ered_ does not totally disappears. Possibly Tolkien
>> felt "compelled" to keep _ered_ because it had appeared in LR.
> But he apparently didn't use the opporunity of the second edition of LR
> to emend it, as he did with _vánier_ and _omentilmo_.
>> . . . Perhaps phrases like _Ered Wethrin_ were treated like compounds :
>> _*orodwathren_ would regularly yield the pl. _*eredwethrin_.
> What of _ered e-mbar nîn_?
> The answer is simple (I'd say) - Tolkien was vacillating. As always.
Names in _The Lord of the Rings_" Places, s.v._Ashen Mountains_), so it would
seem to be a matter of morphological variation, rather than vacillation.
P.S. When writing the above I looked up the list of abbreviations to be used on
this list, to find the one for "Guide . . .": There was not one, but the book
in which it appears has an abbreviation of its own. To my -- perhaps too
angular -- way of thinking this seems skewed. The relevant sources for which
we need abbreviations should be works by J.R.R. Tolkien. It seems to me both
logical and practical to write GN for "Guide to the Names in _The Lord
of the Rings_".
[But then we would have still to note that GN is published in TC; and
furthermore, all page references are to TC, not GN. Personally, I would cite
a GN reference as either "TC:xxx s.v. Entry" or "in Tolkien's "Guide to Names",
s.v. Entry (TC:xxx)". Carl]
Anders Stenström wrote:
> >> . . . Perhaps phrases like _Ered Wethrin_ were treatedAlso, we have _y_ in hardly differing things like _Emyn Muil_
> like compounds :
> >> _*orodwathren_ would regularly yield the pl. _*eredwethrin_.
> > What of _ered e-mbar nîn_?[Anders]
> > The answer is simple (I'd say) - Tolkien was vacillating. As always.
> Tolkien gave the plural of _orod_ as "_eryd_, _ered_" (in TC:Good point. Objection withdrawn, more questions raised below.
> "Guide to the
> Names in _The Lord of the Rings_" Places, s.v._Ashen
> so it would seem to be a matter of morphological variation,What kind of variation?
> rather than vacillation.
Can it have been dialectal variation rather than purely morphological?
_Eryd_ appears in First-Age writings of _The War of the Jewels_, but
_ered_ in _The Lord of the Rings_. Perhaps we can write it off to the
Gondor dialect, but then, confer LR:1089, where Sindarin _y_ is
explicitly stated to be pronounced as _i_ in Gondor. Why not _*erid_,
_*enid_ then? A wild guess is that the Mannish Sindarin of Númenor
somehow differed from First-Age Beleriand Sindarin (the Western dialect,
apparently), but this has virtually no proof in the texts whatsoever,
and perhaps not to be taken seriously. After all, _ered e-mbar nîn_ is
First Age as well.
Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...
'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
--JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
- The explanations of my model for I-affection in Sindarin were not
very clear, because I did not mention which syllables are supposed to
be affected, which is very important :-(
With more details, it would be :
- first, raising of e to i and o to u *in the penult* (later final
syllable) before final i
- later, fronting of the back vowels a, o, u to e, ö, y respectively
before a syllable containing an i, and this *everywhere in the word*
- still later, final i becomes non syllabic (perhaps like the final i
of Rumanian _lupi_ "wolves", pl. of _lup_ "wolf") and in some cases
anticipated - more precisely when the preceding syllable contains e,
ô (long open a-like o, printed o with macron and hook in XI), û,
giving respectively ei (later ai), oi (later oe), ui.
Some examples might be useful (j stands for non syllabic i):
Common Eldarin _*ñgolodoi_ > _*ñgolodî_ > _*ñgoluði_ > _*ñgölyðj_ >
S. _Gölydh_ (written "Goelydh"), later _Gelydh_ (XI:364 for the
archaic form "Goelydh" ; for the later form, see for example the
place name _Annon-in-Gelydh_, Silmarillion Index entry _Golodhrim_,
CE _*atarî_ > _*atari_ > _*ederi_ > _*ederj_ > _*edeir_ > S._edair_
(attested in the compound _Edenedair_ "Fathers of Men", X:373)
CE(?) _*orotî_ > _*oroti_ > _*orudi_ > _*örydj > S. _eryd_ (attested
numerous times in XI, e.g. in _Eryd Engrin_ "Iron Mountains", XI:6)
CE _*do3rai_ > _*dôrai_ > _*dûrî_ > _*dûri > _*dûrj_ > S. _duir_ (in
_Emyn Duir_, UT:434)
(The chronology of consonant changes is hypothetical - it can be
I hope this is clearer.
Nai Anar caluva tielmanna !