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Re: [Lambengolmor] Peredhil - translation??

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  • David Kiltz
    ... Not quite. To split some more hairs: _Pereldar_ is used, at least in pre- Lord of the Rings writings, referring to the _Danas_, that are Elves that turned
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 10, 2004
      On 09.08.2004, at 16:06, Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

      > _Peredhil,
      > Pereldar_ do refer specifically to those who were half elf, half
      > Edain, and to nothing else.

      Not quite. To split some more hairs: _Pereldar_ is used, at least in
      pre- Lord of the Rings writings, referring to the _Danas_, that are
      Elves that turned away southwards during the long march from Cuiviénen
      but later came to Beleriand seperately. "They are not counted among the
      Eldar, nor yet among the Avari". In later writings, they're called
      _Nandor_. Cf. e.g.HoME V (The Lost Road) p. 214 and 218-219. While
      Patrick H. Wynne is certainly right when it comes to Lord of the Rings
      time and later writings, the term _Pereldar_ at least, was used in a
      much wider or different sense by Tolkien earlier. Elros and Elrond are
      called _i·Pheredhil [XII:256], so 'the (proto-)typical Peredhil'
      perhaps. But that may not necessarily preclude other uses of the word,
      as the opportunity would arise.

      -David

      [In my previous comments I was in fact specifically speaking only of
      the use of _Peredhil, Pereldar_ in Tolkien's _later_ writings, hence
      my statement, "In Tolkien's later writings, the term Half-elven is
      _only_ applied to people such as Elros and Elrond" etc. I would not
      characterize the use of _Pereldar_ as a name of the Danas as a "much
      wider ... sense" of the same word applied to Elrond et al. in Tolkien's
      later writings, but rather as an externally earlier use of the term with
      a wholly _different_ sense and application (the Danas were not of mixed
      blood, but rather had begun the Great Journey with the other Eldar but
      turned back before completing it -- they thus fell short of fitting the
      full definition of _Eldar_ as "the Elves that obeyed the summons and
      followed the three princes" (V:214).

      Further emphasizing the distinction between this earlier usage of
      _Pereldar_ in Tolkien's writings with its later usage is the fact that
      in other texts roughly contemporary to the late-30s QS, _Pereldar_
      is NOT used to refer to Elrond et al. Elrond is instead (in the later
      Annals of Beleriand) called _Elrond Beringol_ 'the Half-elven'
      (V:148 n.44) -- the form without mutation of the initial consonant
      appears in the Etym. as N. _Peringol_ 'half-elf, or Gnome' < _perin_
      *'half' + a shortened form of N _golodh_ 'Gnome'. -- PHW]
    • Sorcha
      ... As being the other half in this discussion, I always assumed that with _Peredhil_ Tolkien meant Half-elven as a union between man and elf. My question
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 10, 2004
        On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:06:29 -0000, Suzane Ritch wrote:

        > A discussion has come up between myself and a friend
        > regarding the correct meaning of the word _peredhil_.

        As being the other half in this discussion, I always assumed that
        with _Peredhil_ Tolkien meant 'Half-elven' as a union between man
        and elf.

        My question is: what would be the correct name for an
        edain/Maia? Maiar are not elves so that is why I thought the
        use of _Peredhil_ for this union was kind of awkward.

        Sorcha

        --

        "If I stayed beside you, love would lead me, not wisdom.”

        Beleg Cúthalion to Túrin Turambar, The Silmarillion,
        the Tale of Túrin Turambar.

        http://www.misarray.info/

        [There are no unions of a Maia and a Man in Tolkien's
        mythology, so I doubt he ever coined a term for the issue
        of such a pairing; certainly none appear in the published
        material. -- PHW]
      • calwen76
        ... I think that we can even call Lúthien as _Peredhel_. She was _half- Elven_, and though the word was originally used to express the mergence of an Elf and
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 12, 2004
          Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

          > In Tolkien's later writings, the term Half-elven is _only_ applied
          > to people such as Elros and Elrond, Dior, and Earendil who were
          > the result of Elf/_Mortal Man_ unions, and there is no evidence
          > to suggest that it was ever applied to the result of other
          > combinations (if these even occurred). In other words, _Peredhil,
          > Pereldar_ do refer specifically to those who were half elf, half
          > Edain, and to nothing else.

          I think that we can even call Lúthien as _Peredhel_. She was _half-
          Elven_, and though the word was originally used to express the
          mergence of an Elf and a Man, I think it is possible to apply it to
          children of an Elf and a Maia.

          What do you think?

          Lucy

          [On the basis of later writings, the answer to this is clearly "no".
          In "The Problem of _Ros_", Dior (son of Beren and Lúthien) is
          quoted as saying, "I am the first of the _Peredhil_ (Half-elven);
          but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the _Eluchíl_." (XII:369) If
          Dior was the FIRST of the _Peredhil_, then obviously this term did
          not include his mother Lúthien (born of the union of Elf and Maia)
          but must instead have referred to Dior as the offspring of an Elf
          and a _Mortal Man_. This identification of Dior as the first of the
          Half-elven also occurs in "The Shibboleth of Feanor": Eärendil
          (son of Idril and Tuor) "was thus the second of the Pereldar
          (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien
          Tinúviel" (XII:348).

          I don't recall Lúthien ever being referred to by any special term
          describing her as of "mixed" Elven/Maian (!?) parentage -- she
          always seems to be regarded as unquestionably of Elven race.
          Tolkien explicitly classifies Lúthien as simply one of the Eldar
          in Appendix A, §I "The Númenorean Kings": "There were three
          unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren", etc.
          (LR:1010)

          This is probably because the Elves were much closer _in kind_
          to the Maiar than they were to Men -- both Maiar and Elves
          were immortal beings whose spirits were forever bound within
          the confines of the World until its ending; but Men were mortal,
          and after death their spirits passed beyond the World. The union
          of an Elf and Maia thus presented few, if any, "theological"
          problems. The union of an Elf and a Mortal was another matter,
          however, for the ultimate fates of the spirits of Elves and of Men
          were wholly and irreconcilably different. Thus the offspring of
          an Elf/Mortal union required a new classification and a new
          term to describe it: _Peredhil, Pereldar_. -- PHW]
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