Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Peredhil - translation??

Expand Messages
  • Suzane Ritch
    A discussion has come up between myself and a friend regarding the correct meaning of the word _peredhil_. Most of what I find seems to say it means
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 9, 2004
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      A discussion has come up between myself and a friend regarding the
      correct meaning of the word _peredhil_. Most of what I find seems to
      say it means "half-elf", specifically half elf, half man (_edain_), but
      in looking up the actual meaning of the word I have the found the
      following on the Ardalambion website:

      HALF-ELVEN (noun, pl) Pereldar (Sindarin Peredhil, LotR:1071).
      Singular #Perelda. -Letters:386 (found in Quettaparma Quenyanna)

      HALVE perya- (divide in middle) (After perya, a word perina is
      mentioned - it is undefined but seems to be a corresponding adjective
      or past participle *"halved, divided in middle".) -PER (found in
      Quettaparma Quenyanna)

      Edhel "Elf" (older Eledh) (found in A Taste of Elvish - II: SELECTED
      SINDARIN VOCABULARY)

      Therefore, based on the above, I am under the assumption that
      "peredhil" really means half elf and the rest some other race(s),
      instead of just half elf and specifically half man (edain) - per
      (half, halved) and edhil (elf). Is this correct?

      Thank you for your help.

      Arianlee

      [I think you're splitting hairs here. Both S. _Peredhil_ and Q.
      _Pereldar_ literally mean 'Half-elven' (LR:1010, L:386) and
      contain the explicit elements _per-_ 'half' (cf. the root PER-
      'divide in middle, halve' in the Etymologies) and S. _edhil_,
      Q. _eldar_ 'elves'. But words are usually more than the mere
      sum of their individual parts, and to suppose that _Peredhil,
      Pereldar_ could apply to some other combination than Elf/Man
      (say, Elf/Ent, or Elf/Orc?) simply because no explicit element
      meaning 'Man' is present, goes against the evidence we can find
      _in Tolkien's texts_ (rather than in online word-lists) of how
      these terms were applied within the context of his mythology.
      In Tolkien's later writings, the term Half-elven is _only_ applied
      to people such as Elros and Elrond, Dior, and Earendil who were
      the result of Elf/_Mortal Man_ unions, and there is no evidence
      to suggest that it was ever applied to the result of other
      combinations (if these even occurred). In other words, _Peredhil,
      Pereldar_ do refer specifically to those who were half elf, half
      Edain, and to nothing else. -- PHW]
    • David Kiltz
      ... Not quite. To split some more hairs: _Pereldar_ is used, at least in pre- Lord of the Rings writings, referring to the _Danas_, that are Elves that turned
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 10, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        On 09.08.2004, at 16:06, Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

        > _Peredhil,
        > Pereldar_ do refer specifically to those who were half elf, half
        > Edain, and to nothing else.

        Not quite. To split some more hairs: _Pereldar_ is used, at least in
        pre- Lord of the Rings writings, referring to the _Danas_, that are
        Elves that turned away southwards during the long march from Cuiviénen
        but later came to Beleriand seperately. "They are not counted among the
        Eldar, nor yet among the Avari". In later writings, they're called
        _Nandor_. Cf. e.g.HoME V (The Lost Road) p. 214 and 218-219. While
        Patrick H. Wynne is certainly right when it comes to Lord of the Rings
        time and later writings, the term _Pereldar_ at least, was used in a
        much wider or different sense by Tolkien earlier. Elros and Elrond are
        called _i·Pheredhil [XII:256], so 'the (proto-)typical Peredhil'
        perhaps. But that may not necessarily preclude other uses of the word,
        as the opportunity would arise.

        -David

        [In my previous comments I was in fact specifically speaking only of
        the use of _Peredhil, Pereldar_ in Tolkien's _later_ writings, hence
        my statement, "In Tolkien's later writings, the term Half-elven is
        _only_ applied to people such as Elros and Elrond" etc. I would not
        characterize the use of _Pereldar_ as a name of the Danas as a "much
        wider ... sense" of the same word applied to Elrond et al. in Tolkien's
        later writings, but rather as an externally earlier use of the term with
        a wholly _different_ sense and application (the Danas were not of mixed
        blood, but rather had begun the Great Journey with the other Eldar but
        turned back before completing it -- they thus fell short of fitting the
        full definition of _Eldar_ as "the Elves that obeyed the summons and
        followed the three princes" (V:214).

        Further emphasizing the distinction between this earlier usage of
        _Pereldar_ in Tolkien's writings with its later usage is the fact that
        in other texts roughly contemporary to the late-30s QS, _Pereldar_
        is NOT used to refer to Elrond et al. Elrond is instead (in the later
        Annals of Beleriand) called _Elrond Beringol_ 'the Half-elven'
        (V:148 n.44) -- the form without mutation of the initial consonant
        appears in the Etym. as N. _Peringol_ 'half-elf, or Gnome' < _perin_
        *'half' + a shortened form of N _golodh_ 'Gnome'. -- PHW]
      • Sorcha
        ... As being the other half in this discussion, I always assumed that with _Peredhil_ Tolkien meant Half-elven as a union between man and elf. My question
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 10, 2004
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:06:29 -0000, Suzane Ritch wrote:

          > A discussion has come up between myself and a friend
          > regarding the correct meaning of the word _peredhil_.

          As being the other half in this discussion, I always assumed that
          with _Peredhil_ Tolkien meant 'Half-elven' as a union between man
          and elf.

          My question is: what would be the correct name for an
          edain/Maia? Maiar are not elves so that is why I thought the
          use of _Peredhil_ for this union was kind of awkward.

          Sorcha

          --

          "If I stayed beside you, love would lead me, not wisdom.”

          Beleg Cúthalion to Túrin Turambar, The Silmarillion,
          the Tale of Túrin Turambar.

          http://www.misarray.info/

          [There are no unions of a Maia and a Man in Tolkien's
          mythology, so I doubt he ever coined a term for the issue
          of such a pairing; certainly none appear in the published
          material. -- PHW]
        • calwen76
          ... I think that we can even call Lúthien as _Peredhel_. She was _half- Elven_, and though the word was originally used to express the mergence of an Elf and
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 12, 2004
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

            > In Tolkien's later writings, the term Half-elven is _only_ applied
            > to people such as Elros and Elrond, Dior, and Earendil who were
            > the result of Elf/_Mortal Man_ unions, and there is no evidence
            > to suggest that it was ever applied to the result of other
            > combinations (if these even occurred). In other words, _Peredhil,
            > Pereldar_ do refer specifically to those who were half elf, half
            > Edain, and to nothing else.

            I think that we can even call Lúthien as _Peredhel_. She was _half-
            Elven_, and though the word was originally used to express the
            mergence of an Elf and a Man, I think it is possible to apply it to
            children of an Elf and a Maia.

            What do you think?

            Lucy

            [On the basis of later writings, the answer to this is clearly "no".
            In "The Problem of _Ros_", Dior (son of Beren and Lúthien) is
            quoted as saying, "I am the first of the _Peredhil_ (Half-elven);
            but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the _Eluchíl_." (XII:369) If
            Dior was the FIRST of the _Peredhil_, then obviously this term did
            not include his mother Lúthien (born of the union of Elf and Maia)
            but must instead have referred to Dior as the offspring of an Elf
            and a _Mortal Man_. This identification of Dior as the first of the
            Half-elven also occurs in "The Shibboleth of Feanor": Eärendil
            (son of Idril and Tuor) "was thus the second of the Pereldar
            (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien
            Tinúviel" (XII:348).

            I don't recall Lúthien ever being referred to by any special term
            describing her as of "mixed" Elven/Maian (!?) parentage -- she
            always seems to be regarded as unquestionably of Elven race.
            Tolkien explicitly classifies Lúthien as simply one of the Eldar
            in Appendix A, §I "The Númenorean Kings": "There were three
            unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren", etc.
            (LR:1010)

            This is probably because the Elves were much closer _in kind_
            to the Maiar than they were to Men -- both Maiar and Elves
            were immortal beings whose spirits were forever bound within
            the confines of the World until its ending; but Men were mortal,
            and after death their spirits passed beyond the World. The union
            of an Elf and Maia thus presented few, if any, "theological"
            problems. The union of an Elf and a Mortal was another matter,
            however, for the ultimate fates of the spirits of Elves and of Men
            were wholly and irreconcilably different. Thus the offspring of
            an Elf/Mortal union required a new classification and a new
            term to describe it: _Peredhil, Pereldar_. -- PHW]
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.