Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

VT45 Errata ?

Expand Messages
  • lambendil
    In VT45:14 (s.v. 3EL-) we read : *_Helwe_ name of Teler-lord, N _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and N form _Elwe_ I think there is a typo here (else the
    Message 1 of 4 , May 9 10:02 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      In VT45:14 (s.v. 3EL-) we read :

      "*_Helwe_ name of Teler-lord, N _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and N
      form _Elwe_"

      I think there is a typo here (else the editors would have noticed this
      slip) and the correct reading should be :

      "Q _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and N form _Elwe_"

      (or, perhaps "N _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and Q form _Elwe_")


      Sébastien Bertho

      [The passage as given in VT45:14 is correct; in this instance there
      was no slip by the editors, nor a slip by Tolkien. In the Etymologies,
      bases beginning in 3- have Qenya derivates in _h-_: thus 3AN- 'male'
      > Q _hanu_ 'a male', 3AR- 'have, hold' > Q _harya-_ 'possess', etc.
      In Noldorin initial 3- disappeared: thus 3AN- > N _anw_ 'a male',
      3AR- > N _ardh_ 'realm'.

      The point of the passage cited above s.v. 3EL- is that etymologically
      the Qenya form of the name of the lord of the Teleri would have
      been *_Helwe_, but the only name used in written records (apparently
      even records written in Qenya) was the Telerin/Noldorin form _Elwe_.
      The asterisk preceding *_Helwe_ does not indicate that it is a
      primitive or early form, but rather that it is a form not recorded
      in writing.

      -- PHW]
    • jonathan_avidan
      ... It is important to note that at least by the sixties, if we judge by Notes on _Óre_ , for example (VT41), Tolkien had already changed his mind and
      Message 2 of 4 , May 10 4:41 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Patrick Wynne wrote:

        > [The passage as given in VT45:14 is correct; in this instance
        > there was no slip by the editors, nor a slip by Tolkien. In the
        > Etymologies, bases beginning in 3- have Qenya derivates in
        > _h-_: thus 3AN- 'male' > Q _hanu_ 'a male', 3AR- 'have,
        > hold' > Q _harya-_ 'possess', etc. In Noldorin initial 3-
        > disappeared: thus 3AN- > N _anw_ 'a male', 3AR- > N _ardh_
        > 'realm'.]

        It is important to note that at least by the sixties, if we judge by
        "Notes on _Óre_", for example (VT41), Tolkien had already changed
        his mind and reversed this change. Thus from 3OR- we have Q.
        and T. _óre, ora, órea_ and other derivatives lacking initial consonant,
        yet the cognate of Q. T. _óre_ is S. _gûr_. The change of initial 3-
        to G- appears in Doriathrin (or Ilkorin?) of the thirties, according to
        the Etymologies. Is this a case of Etym.-Doriathrin incorporated into
        S. (as opposed to Noldorin)?

        -- Jonathan Avidan

        [This is an interesting point. The "Notes on _Óre_" date to c. 1968,
        and the typescript text on VT41:11 does indeed state that Common
        Eldarin 3OR- yielded Q _or-_, T. _or-_, and S. _gor-_. However, the
        forms _óre, ora, órea_ cited by Jonathan are A) from a different
        (albeit contemporary) set of notes; B) are in fact said to derive from
        Common Eldarin root HOR (VT41:13); and C) are evidently Quenya, not
        Quenya and Telerin. It is interesting that Tolkien gives _(h)ore_ as
        one of the derivatives of HOR in the latter notes, showing that initlal
        H- in the root was sometimes retained (dialectally, perhaps).

        But Jonathan's basic point stands, that Tolkien clearly changed his mind
        in his later writings about what the developments of original initial 3-
        should be in the various descendant languages. He was also uncertain
        whether this sound should be 3- or H- in the primitive tongue, as
        shown by the variation between 3OR- and HOR- in the notes mentioned
        above. In "Quendi and Eldar" (c. 1959-60) we can note the root
        *HO 'away, from, from among' (XI:368), which is clearly a later conception
        of 3O- 'from, away, from among, out of' in the Etymologies. In "Q&E"
        this initial *H- was retained in Quenya and Telerin, but lost in Sindarin;
        thus *HEK- > Q. _heka!_, T. _heca!_ 'be gone! stand aside', but S. _ego!_
        'be off!' (XI:364-65). -- PHW]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.