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Re: [Lambengolmor] are Q voiced?

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  • BertrandBellet75@aol.com
    Tolkien s own pronunciation of Quenya may be helpful. I will use Laurence J. Krieg s short but insightful article Tolkien s Pronunciation: Some Observations
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 30 12:28 PM
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      Tolkien's own pronunciation of Quenya may be helpful. I will use Laurence J.
      Krieg's short but insightful article "Tolkien's Pronunciation: Some
      Observations" in "An Introduction to Elvish" edited by Jim Allan, pp. 152-159 . It
      reproduces among others a phonetic analysis of Namárië (spoken and sung) made at
      the Phonetics Laboratory at the University of Michigan, presented in the IPA (or
      rather a variant: notably [y] is used where IPA usually has [j]) in a rather
      narrow transcription.

      We must account with some influence of English on Tolkien's pronunciation of
      Quenya, but it does not affects the distinction between voiced and unvoiced
      stops. In fact he regularly pronounces words like _andúne_, _Varda_, _unduláve_,
      _sindanóriello_ with [d] and _lumbule_ and _imbe_ with [b].

      So his spelling on that point reflects the phonetic realisation rather than
      the underlying phonology in the theory of Benct Philip Jonsson.

      In addition, it is also interesting to note that unvoiced stops are generally
      unaspirated, with only three exceptions which are perhaps to regard as slips:
      _únótinar_ with [th] and _caita_ with [kh] in the spoken version, untúpa with
      [ph] in the sung version.

      Bertrand Bellet
      -----------------------------------------------------------
      Language has both strengthened imagination and been freed by it. Who shall
      say whether the free adjective has created images bizarre and beautiful, or the
      adjective been freed by strange and beautiful pictures in the mind ? - J.R.R.
      Tolkien, A Secret Vice


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lambendil
      In VT45:14 (s.v. 3EL-) we read : *_Helwe_ name of Teler-lord, N _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and N form _Elwe_ I think there is a typo here (else the
      Message 2 of 4 , May 9, 2004
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        In VT45:14 (s.v. 3EL-) we read :

        "*_Helwe_ name of Teler-lord, N _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and N
        form _Elwe_"

        I think there is a typo here (else the editors would have noticed this
        slip) and the correct reading should be :

        "Q _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and N form _Elwe_"

        (or, perhaps "N _Elwe_, always recorded in Tel. and Q form _Elwe_")


        Sébastien Bertho

        [The passage as given in VT45:14 is correct; in this instance there
        was no slip by the editors, nor a slip by Tolkien. In the Etymologies,
        bases beginning in 3- have Qenya derivates in _h-_: thus 3AN- 'male'
        > Q _hanu_ 'a male', 3AR- 'have, hold' > Q _harya-_ 'possess', etc.
        In Noldorin initial 3- disappeared: thus 3AN- > N _anw_ 'a male',
        3AR- > N _ardh_ 'realm'.

        The point of the passage cited above s.v. 3EL- is that etymologically
        the Qenya form of the name of the lord of the Teleri would have
        been *_Helwe_, but the only name used in written records (apparently
        even records written in Qenya) was the Telerin/Noldorin form _Elwe_.
        The asterisk preceding *_Helwe_ does not indicate that it is a
        primitive or early form, but rather that it is a form not recorded
        in writing.

        -- PHW]
      • jonathan_avidan
        ... It is important to note that at least by the sixties, if we judge by Notes on _Óre_ , for example (VT41), Tolkien had already changed his mind and
        Message 3 of 4 , May 10, 2004
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          Patrick Wynne wrote:

          > [The passage as given in VT45:14 is correct; in this instance
          > there was no slip by the editors, nor a slip by Tolkien. In the
          > Etymologies, bases beginning in 3- have Qenya derivates in
          > _h-_: thus 3AN- 'male' > Q _hanu_ 'a male', 3AR- 'have,
          > hold' > Q _harya-_ 'possess', etc. In Noldorin initial 3-
          > disappeared: thus 3AN- > N _anw_ 'a male', 3AR- > N _ardh_
          > 'realm'.]

          It is important to note that at least by the sixties, if we judge by
          "Notes on _Óre_", for example (VT41), Tolkien had already changed
          his mind and reversed this change. Thus from 3OR- we have Q.
          and T. _óre, ora, órea_ and other derivatives lacking initial consonant,
          yet the cognate of Q. T. _óre_ is S. _gûr_. The change of initial 3-
          to G- appears in Doriathrin (or Ilkorin?) of the thirties, according to
          the Etymologies. Is this a case of Etym.-Doriathrin incorporated into
          S. (as opposed to Noldorin)?

          -- Jonathan Avidan

          [This is an interesting point. The "Notes on _Óre_" date to c. 1968,
          and the typescript text on VT41:11 does indeed state that Common
          Eldarin 3OR- yielded Q _or-_, T. _or-_, and S. _gor-_. However, the
          forms _óre, ora, órea_ cited by Jonathan are A) from a different
          (albeit contemporary) set of notes; B) are in fact said to derive from
          Common Eldarin root HOR (VT41:13); and C) are evidently Quenya, not
          Quenya and Telerin. It is interesting that Tolkien gives _(h)ore_ as
          one of the derivatives of HOR in the latter notes, showing that initlal
          H- in the root was sometimes retained (dialectally, perhaps).

          But Jonathan's basic point stands, that Tolkien clearly changed his mind
          in his later writings about what the developments of original initial 3-
          should be in the various descendant languages. He was also uncertain
          whether this sound should be 3- or H- in the primitive tongue, as
          shown by the variation between 3OR- and HOR- in the notes mentioned
          above. In "Quendi and Eldar" (c. 1959-60) we can note the root
          *HO 'away, from, from among' (XI:368), which is clearly a later conception
          of 3O- 'from, away, from among, out of' in the Etymologies. In "Q&E"
          this initial *H- was retained in Quenya and Telerin, but lost in Sindarin;
          thus *HEK- > Q. _heka!_, T. _heca!_ 'be gone! stand aside', but S. _ego!_
          'be off!' (XI:364-65). -- PHW]
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