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Re: Q _kiryassea_ adj?

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  • machhezan
    ... I prefer morphology to semantics or syntax for the decision whether it s noun or adjective. Since there are cases like _Gutes mit Bösem vergelten_ to
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 13 9:33 AM
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      David Kiltz wrote:

      > So, I think it's right, as it's normally done, to treat 'das Gute' as a
      > noun (which it syntactically and semantically is).

      I prefer morphology to semantics or syntax for the decision whether
      it's noun or adjective. Since there are cases like _Gutes mit Bösem
      vergelten_ 'to repay good with evil' which show the adjectival endings
      _-s_ and _-m_, I consider these words adjectives, in a "broad sense",
      if you will, yet I prefer broad senses to petty discriminations (if I have
      a choice!).

      [I would consider these distinctions to be far from "petty". As linguists,
      we should _always_ bear in mind that there is not a one-to-one
      correspondence between form and function, only stronger or weaker
      correlations. Indeed, the failure to recognize that Tolkien's languages
      behave just like "real" languages in this regard contributes mightily to
      the mistaken but all too common belief that they are far more artificial
      than they are, and than Tolkien intended them to appear. CFH]

      Of course, the meaning of _das Gute_ is highly abstract, I'd say this
      word is a theological-philosophical term, perhaps even more than
      the English word _the good_. It wouldn't surprise me if most languages
      formed such abstract words by derivation.

      However, I think we can neither exclude nor confirm the possibility that
      certain adjectives could express abstract concepts by themselves, that is,
      when they're not used as specifiers of another word. At least the two
      mentioned occurences of _kiryassea_ don't provide any evidence for this
      question.

      [We do however have an explicit statement from Tolkien regarding this
      phenomenon in general in "Early Qenya": "Adjective may be freely used as
      nouns; their declension then is, of course, identical with that of ordinary
      nouns, according to the KALMA, SINQE, PILIN classes" (with some distinction
      in the plural): PE14:77. From a much later period, we also see the apparent
      adjectival form *_ñavëa_ used as a noun menaing 'consonant', in the plural
      form _ñávëar_, VT39:8. CFH]

      suilaid
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
    • pkmarmor
      Carl commented - ... Compare the (?late) Quenya example in XI:367 ... the adj. _onóna_ twin-born , also used as a noun one of a pair of twins . pkm
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 16 3:44 PM
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        Carl commented -
        >
        > We do however have an explicit statement from Tolkien regarding
        > this phenomenon in general in "Early Qenya": "Adjective[s] may be
        > freely used as nouns..."

        Compare the (?late) Quenya example in XI:367 "... the adj.
        _onóna_ 'twin-born', also used as a noun 'one of a pair of
        twins'."

        pkm
      • Jerome Colburn
        ... And _Apanónar_ Afterborn, _Firyar_ Mortals , _Fírimar_ those apt to die WJ:387. Much earlier, _Engwar_ the Sickly LR:245.
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 17 11:08 PM
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          At 11:44 PM 2/16/04 +0000, pkmarmor wrote:

          >Carl commented -
          > >
          > > We do however have an explicit statement from Tolkien regarding
          > > this phenomenon in general in "Early Qenya": "Adjective[s] may be
          > > freely used as nouns..."
          >
          >Compare the (?late) Quenya example in XI:367 "... the adj.
          >_onóna_ 'twin-born', also used as a noun 'one of a pair of
          >twins'."

          And _Apanónar_ "Afterborn," _Firyar_ "Mortals", _Fírimar_ "those apt to
          die" WJ:387. Much earlier, _Engwar_ "the Sickly" LR:245.

          +-------------------------+
          + Airesseo Kolvorno +
          + Jerome Colburn +
          + jcolburn@... +
          +-------------------------+
          "Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
          Yorker cartoon
        • Paula Marmor
          ... Similarly _Vanya_ is ...from an adjectival derivative _*wanja*_ from the stem _*WAN_... , and _Linda_ is clearly a derivative of the primitive stem
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 18 7:22 PM
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            --- Jerome Colburn identified more adjectives used as nouns.

            Similarly _Vanya_ is "...from an adjectival derivative _*wanja*_
            from the stem _*WAN_...", and _Linda_ is "clearly a derivative of
            the primitive stem _*LIN_ (showing ... adjectival _-á_)"
            (XI:382-3).

            Presumably _Sinda_ and the early clan names _Minyar_ 'Firsts',
            _Tatyar_ 'Seconds', and _Nelyar_ 'Thirds' (XI:380, 421) are formed in
            the same way.


            Paula Marmor
          • Beregond. Anders Stenström
            Another set of nominalized adjectives is, I think, the High-elven names for the days of the week, from _Elenya_ to _Valanya_. If they are thus in origin
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 19 1:47 AM
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              Another set of nominalized adjectives is, I think, the High-elven
              names for the days of the week, from _Elenya_ to _Valanya_. If
              they are thus in origin adjective attributes of an understood _ré_,
              _Tárion_ (the alternative name for _Valanya_) would similarly be
              a genitive attribute.

              Suilad,

              Beregond
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