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Re: Q _kiryassea_ adj?

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  • machhezan
    Relative sentences specify the noun that they refer to, and so do adjectives. The English word _what_, however, isn t a proper relative pronoun in English,
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 11, 2004
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      Relative sentences specify the noun that they refer to, and so do
      adjectives. The English word _what_, however, isn't a proper
      relative pronoun in English, since it can only be used in relative
      sentences that don't specify any (pro)noun. Examples:

      Relative sentences that refer to a noun:

      I see the barrel _that_ is on board ship.
      I see a thing _that_ I like.
      **I see the barrel _what_ is on board ship.
      **I see a thing _what_ I like.


      Relative sentences that don't refer to a noun

      **I see (it) _that_ is on board ship.
      **I see (it) _that_ I like.
      I see _what_ is on board ship.
      I see _what_ I like.

      It seems to be a characteristic of the English language that
      relative sentences (and adjectives) can't be used without the (pro)
      noun they specify, since other languages, Latin for instance, use
      the same word for both kinds of relative sentences:

      Video (dolium) quod in naui est.
      Video (negotium) quod me placet.

      Based on Tolkien's use of the words _what_ and _that_, I'd guess he
      intended at least the adjectives to be usable without a specified noun,
      and maybe the relative sentences as well, just as in Latin.

      suilaid
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
    • David Kiltz
      ... j. wust is right in pointing out that what is on board ship and that is on board ship aren t identical. When I said they are the same , I meant to say
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 11, 2004
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        On 11.02.2004, at 13:38, machhezan wrote:

        > Video (dolium) quod in naui est.
        > Video (negotium) quod me placet.
        >
        > Based on Tolkien's use of the words _what_ and _that_, I'd guess he
        > intended at least the adjectives to be usable without a specified noun,
        > and maybe the relative sentences as well, just as in Latin.

        j. wust is right in pointing out that "what is on board ship" and "that
        is on board ship" aren't identical. When I said "they are the same", I
        meant to say "for the question of noun vs adjective".

        Tolkien might well have intended to mark the differences pointed out by
        j. wust, namely 'video quod in navi est' == *_cénan kiryassea_
        vs 'video hominem qui in navi est' == *_cénan kiryassea nér_. Lit. == +
        'video innavitum hominem' ('innavitum having, of course, been made up
        by me).

        I wonder, however, whether Tolkien didn't mean a) "what is on board
        ship" in the sense of 'whatever, anything that is on board ship' and b)
        by "that is on board ship" simply meant 'used restrictively,
        specifying'; that is, as an adjective/relative clause.

        I would lean towards this second interpretation, that is, that Tolkien
        wrote "what is on board ship" to note that _kiryassea_ could be used in
        reference to people, goods etc.

        That is because I don't think a use as in *_cénan kiryassea_ == 'video
        quod in navi est' without a specified noun is possible, as _kiryassea_
        would, in that case, be a noun, not an adjective.

        This latter situation seems to be part of what Edouard Kloczko was
        getting at.

        -David Kiltz
      • machhezan
        ... This semantical difference corresponds exactly to the distributional difference that (b) is always accompanied by the noun or pronoun it specifies while
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 12, 2004
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          David Kiltz wrote:
          > I wonder, however, whether Tolkien didn't mean a) "what is
          > on board ship" in the sense of 'whatever, anything that is
          > on board ship' and b) by "that is on board ship" simply
          > meant 'used restrictively, specifying'; that is, as an
          > adjective/relative clause.

          This semantical difference corresponds exactly to the distributional
          difference that (b) is always accompanied by the noun or pronoun it
          specifies while (a) isn't ever, that is, (a) forms the head of a noun
          phrase while (b) is only a specifier. However, that difference doesn't
          correspond to any difference in spelling. I even believe that the
          semantical difference isn't but a reflect of the distributional one,
          that is, the more specific meaning of (b) is only a reflect of it's
          use as a specifier.

          > That is because I don't think a use as in *_cénan
          > kiryassea_ = 'video quod in navi est' without a specified
          > noun is possible, as _kiryassea_ would, in that case, be a
          > noun, not an adjective.

          Is there any evidence that Quenya noun phrases can't be formed by
          adjectives? If not, then I'd say that the confusion of "that is on
          board" (b) and "what is on board" (a) indicates that Quenya adjectives
          aren't only used as specifiers of noun phrases but also as their
          heads, like e.g. in Latin or in German, not like in English.

          suilaid
          j. 'mach' wust
        • David Kiltz
          ... I agree. Of course _what_ is used that way and by virtue of its function ( indefinitum ) can refer to anything/everything. Still, my point was that I think
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 13, 2004
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            On 13.02.2004, at 01:25, machhezan wrote:

            > This semantical difference corresponds exactly to the distributional
            > difference

            I agree. Of course _what_ is used that way and by virtue of its
            function ('indefinitum') can refer to anything/everything. Still, my
            point was that I think it was used by Tolkien not to say anything about
            the use of _kiryassea_ as the head of a noun phrase (or as a noun,
            formed by zero-derivation from an adjective). Rather, that it simply
            indicated that _kiryassea_ can refer to any, well, semantic field, if
            you will. That is, e.g. people, cattle, goods etc.. But see below.

            > Is there any evidence that Quenya noun phrases can't be formed by
            > adjectives? <snip>
            > That Quenya adjectives
            > aren't only used as specifiers of noun phrases but also as their
            > heads, like e.g. in Latin or in German, not like in English.

            Well, it depends on whether you want to keep the term 'adjective' even
            in a case like German "das Gute siegt" or "Evil evil mars" like Olssen
            [1988: Das 'substantivierte' Adjektiv im Deutschen und Englischen. In:
            FoL 22, S.337-372]. Where he describes 'das Gute' or 'Evil' as elliptic
            (ellipsis of N). This follows cases such as German "zieh' das Grüne an"
            'put on the green one (sc. dress)'. In the latter case, German indeed
            differs from English in that 'das Grüne' can be the head of a NP.
            However, a phrase like "das Gute siegt" is entirely different. 'Das
            Gute' here needs no complement and there is no ellipsis. Rather, it
            serves as an abstract (hence it is neuter, things like 'der Gute/die
            Gute' would, again, be elliptic, as 'man/woman' aut sim. are to be
            understood). So, I think it's right, as it's normally done, to treat
            'das Gute' as a noun (which it syntactically and semantically is). In
            such cases, of course, English works similarly, that is, it can use
            adjectives as nouns (header of a NP) without formal derivation. Cf.
            "Oft evil evil mars".

            Cases like a) "das ist ein Guter (e.g. Kaffee)" vs b) "that's a good one"
            (/coffee) are different. (That fact that Modern English can, in such
            cases, use adjectives only as specifiers (i.e. has to insert some kind
            of 'prop noun') is probably due to pragmatic reasons, i.e. because
            English has lost grammatical gender distinction.)

            Now for Quenya. I solely based my assessment on Tolkien's statement
            that _kiryassea_ is an adjective. Case b ('an evil one') then might be
            possible in Quenya if we take the word 'adjective' in a very broad
            sense. Envisage a situation where you tell someone "do you see the Elf
            over there? He's my friend." "Which one? I see two, one on the quay and
            one on board ship". "_Kiryassea meldonya_ (sc. 'the one on board ship
            is my friend'). If we take _kiryassea_ here to be the head, then I
            would tend to say yes, it is permissible, because the term 'adjective'
            could be extended to such a use, although _kiryassea_ is functionally a
            noun here. Still, it's a conditioned function in ellipsis.

            Now case a ('evil...') is what Edouard Kloczko touched upon
            > (Looks more to me like a noun; what/that
            > is on board ship == the content of a ship == shipment ?)

            Case a, I'd venture to say, is not possible in Quenya. For two reasons:

            1) _Kiryassea_ in that case would be truly a noun (unconditioned), and
            hence, Tolkien wouldn't have called it an adjective (not without a
            further remark, however).

            2) As far as I know, there are no attestation of zero-derivation
            conversion of adjectives to nouns in Quenya. Unless, you take words
            like _Vala_ 'angelic Power' and _Vása_ 'the Consumer' as original
            adjectives. But I think they are rather originally verbal 'has power',
            'consumes'. (These forms are in themselves remarkable, being old
            formations, they seem to be modelled after Valarin formations. That,
            however, is another matter).

            So, to sum up, I think adjectives (if taken in the broadest or, X-bar
            sense) can be headers of a noun phrase (no evidence to the contrary is
            known to me) but only in case b (of course, as they are no adjectives
            in case a).

            That, I hope, might also be an answer to E. Kloczko's first post. That
            is, something like "salut mon cher" would be possible but something
            like + "le cher" == 'what is dear/expensive == e.g. 'a precious stone', I
            think is not.

            Note that all these assertions are based on Tolkien's wording. Therefore
            all statements regarding Quenya usage are (at times highly) putative.
            Remarks on general grammatical phenomena are not, unless explicitly
            marked as such.

            -David Kiltz



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • machhezan
            ... I prefer morphology to semantics or syntax for the decision whether it s noun or adjective. Since there are cases like _Gutes mit Bösem vergelten_ to
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 13, 2004
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              David Kiltz wrote:

              > So, I think it's right, as it's normally done, to treat 'das Gute' as a
              > noun (which it syntactically and semantically is).

              I prefer morphology to semantics or syntax for the decision whether
              it's noun or adjective. Since there are cases like _Gutes mit Bösem
              vergelten_ 'to repay good with evil' which show the adjectival endings
              _-s_ and _-m_, I consider these words adjectives, in a "broad sense",
              if you will, yet I prefer broad senses to petty discriminations (if I have
              a choice!).

              [I would consider these distinctions to be far from "petty". As linguists,
              we should _always_ bear in mind that there is not a one-to-one
              correspondence between form and function, only stronger or weaker
              correlations. Indeed, the failure to recognize that Tolkien's languages
              behave just like "real" languages in this regard contributes mightily to
              the mistaken but all too common belief that they are far more artificial
              than they are, and than Tolkien intended them to appear. CFH]

              Of course, the meaning of _das Gute_ is highly abstract, I'd say this
              word is a theological-philosophical term, perhaps even more than
              the English word _the good_. It wouldn't surprise me if most languages
              formed such abstract words by derivation.

              However, I think we can neither exclude nor confirm the possibility that
              certain adjectives could express abstract concepts by themselves, that is,
              when they're not used as specifiers of another word. At least the two
              mentioned occurences of _kiryassea_ don't provide any evidence for this
              question.

              [We do however have an explicit statement from Tolkien regarding this
              phenomenon in general in "Early Qenya": "Adjective may be freely used as
              nouns; their declension then is, of course, identical with that of ordinary
              nouns, according to the KALMA, SINQE, PILIN classes" (with some distinction
              in the plural): PE14:77. From a much later period, we also see the apparent
              adjectival form *_ñavëa_ used as a noun menaing 'consonant', in the plural
              form _ñávëar_, VT39:8. CFH]

              suilaid
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
            • pkmarmor
              Carl commented - ... Compare the (?late) Quenya example in XI:367 ... the adj. _onóna_ twin-born , also used as a noun one of a pair of twins . pkm
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 16, 2004
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                Carl commented -
                >
                > We do however have an explicit statement from Tolkien regarding
                > this phenomenon in general in "Early Qenya": "Adjective[s] may be
                > freely used as nouns..."

                Compare the (?late) Quenya example in XI:367 "... the adj.
                _onóna_ 'twin-born', also used as a noun 'one of a pair of
                twins'."

                pkm
              • Jerome Colburn
                ... And _Apanónar_ Afterborn, _Firyar_ Mortals , _Fírimar_ those apt to die WJ:387. Much earlier, _Engwar_ the Sickly LR:245.
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 17, 2004
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                  At 11:44 PM 2/16/04 +0000, pkmarmor wrote:

                  >Carl commented -
                  > >
                  > > We do however have an explicit statement from Tolkien regarding
                  > > this phenomenon in general in "Early Qenya": "Adjective[s] may be
                  > > freely used as nouns..."
                  >
                  >Compare the (?late) Quenya example in XI:367 "... the adj.
                  >_onóna_ 'twin-born', also used as a noun 'one of a pair of
                  >twins'."

                  And _Apanónar_ "Afterborn," _Firyar_ "Mortals", _Fírimar_ "those apt to
                  die" WJ:387. Much earlier, _Engwar_ "the Sickly" LR:245.

                  +-------------------------+
                  + Airesseo Kolvorno +
                  + Jerome Colburn +
                  + jcolburn@... +
                  +-------------------------+
                  "Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
                  Yorker cartoon
                • Paula Marmor
                  ... Similarly _Vanya_ is ...from an adjectival derivative _*wanja*_ from the stem _*WAN_... , and _Linda_ is clearly a derivative of the primitive stem
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 18, 2004
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                    --- Jerome Colburn identified more adjectives used as nouns.

                    Similarly _Vanya_ is "...from an adjectival derivative _*wanja*_
                    from the stem _*WAN_...", and _Linda_ is "clearly a derivative of
                    the primitive stem _*LIN_ (showing ... adjectival _-á_)"
                    (XI:382-3).

                    Presumably _Sinda_ and the early clan names _Minyar_ 'Firsts',
                    _Tatyar_ 'Seconds', and _Nelyar_ 'Thirds' (XI:380, 421) are formed in
                    the same way.


                    Paula Marmor
                  • Beregond. Anders Stenström
                    Another set of nominalized adjectives is, I think, the High-elven names for the days of the week, from _Elenya_ to _Valanya_. If they are thus in origin
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 19, 2004
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                      Another set of nominalized adjectives is, I think, the High-elven
                      names for the days of the week, from _Elenya_ to _Valanya_. If
                      they are thus in origin adjective attributes of an understood _ré_,
                      _Tárion_ (the alternative name for _Valanya_) would similarly be
                      a genitive attribute.

                      Suilad,

                      Beregond
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