- Aiya! Has anyone mused on the internal historical position of the prayers published in VT43-44? From what examples of Tolkien s Quenya I have seen, I gatherMessage 1 of 5 , Jan 11, 2004View SourceAiya!
Has anyone mused on the internal historical position of the prayers
published in VT43-44? From what examples of Tolkien's Quenya I have
seen, I gather that Tolkien was inclined (at least in his, pardon
me, *mature* years) to confine his practice of Quenya to texts of
definite internal position, or, at least, of readily assumable
internal "origin" (that is "an Elf would have said X like that). I
am aware of Tolkien's early usage of his languages in relation to
his purely Primary World affairs (his relations with Edith - well,
not a purely Primary World affair, if you judge by the names on
their tombstones :) - but still, he seems to place every Quenya
piece in his world, where it should properly be. For example, take
the Merin Sentence: instead of answering "I would say it like that"
he curiously explains how would _an Elf_ say "Merry Christmas", with
all the difficulties involved. So I wonder if Tolkien considered the
internal factors involved in composing a Quenya translation of, say,
"Hail Mary". Should we analyze the texts as a unique piece of
Seventh Age Quenya (probably as spoken in Valinor) and are we to get
anything interesting from that? For if it was written by Tolkien as
a piece of "A.D.", and not "B.C." Quenya, this form of Quenya must
be different from what we've known before, at least in some aspects
(given the dramatically slower Quenya evolution rate in Valinor).
Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo [Boris Shapiro]
: avartuvan i tauri ni ontaner : an luumenya tyeela ar loanyar sintar :
[My own take on the Prayers is that they were simply a personal,
private exercise, not intended to have any place within the
mythology. My guess is that Tolkien simply had the Rosary on his
mind one day and decided to see how it might be translated. CFH]
- Aiya! Sunday, January 11, 2004, 11:25:39 PM, Boris Shapiro wrote: I raised a question of whether Tolkien s Catholic prayers in Quenya were meant to be a pieceMessage 2 of 5 , Jan 13, 2004View SourceAiya!
Sunday, January 11, 2004, 11:25:39 PM, Boris Shapiro wrote:
I raised a question of whether Tolkien's Catholic prayers in Quenya
were meant to be a piece of A.D. (Seventh Age) Quenya or a simple
exercise of Tolkien's.
CFH> [My own take on the Prayers is that they were simply a personal,
CFH> private exercise, not intended to have any place within the
CFH> mythology. My guess is that Tolkien simply had the Rosary on his
CFH> mind one day and decided to see how it might be translated. CFH]
OK, but won't in be somehow extraordinary? I mean, I don't recall many
Quenya texts that weren't composed by Tolkien to be a part of his
world. In fact, I fail to recall any (except early Qenya exercises).
True, given his attitude toward both his world and his languages, it
is hard to imagine him composing a Quenya text stripped of its
[But he wasn't "composing" a Quenya text, strictly speaking: he was
_translating_ prayers that we know had a great personal significance
for him, into the language he was creating. No more (or less!) extraordinary
I would say than the choice of "Beren" and "L�thien" for his and Edith's
gravestone. Moreover, Tolkien _is_ known to have been an inveterate
doodler, writing newspaper stories and headlines in _tengwar_ and the
like. I see no reason to think he wouldn't "doodle" in Quenya, as it were,
as well. And finally, let us not forget the long tradition of translating
The Lord's Prayer into various languages, to give a sample of a
language through a very-well-known text. CFH]
Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo [Boris Shapiro]
: avartuvan i tauri ni ontaner : an luumenya tyeela ar loanyar sintar :
- ... **Personally, I do not find it extraordinary or even odd. Quenya, though undoubtedly an artistic creation, is a language. One of the major characteristicsMessage 3 of 5 , Jan 14, 2004View Source
>[Boris Shapiro] raised a question of whether Tolkien'sCarl F. Hostetter replied:
> Catholic prayers in Quenya were meant to be a piece
> of A.D. (Seventh Age) Quenya or a simple
> exercise of Tolkien's.
>> My own take on the Prayers is that they were simply a personal,Boris:
>> private exercise, not intended to have any place within the
>> mythology. My guess is that Tolkien simply had the Rosary on his
>> mind one day and decided to see how it might be translated.
>OK, but won't in [read: it -- ab] be somehow extraordinary?**Personally, I do not find it extraordinary or even odd. Quenya,
though undoubtedly an artistic creation, is a language. One of
the major characteristics of a language, in fact its raison d'être,
is its ability to express our thoughts and ideas. Tolkien created
a language that can be used even beyond his mythological world,
which he testified by translating the Prayers; and we do something
similar in our Elvish compositions. There is nothing wrong with
that -- as I said, Quenya is after all a language and a language
is a means for communication.
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
by any other name would smell as sweet. (Juliet, _Romeo and Juliet_)
- ... The question Boris had raised long ago is very interesting. Quenya is a language being the expression of the Quendian-culture and Quendian-mythology inMessage 4 of 5 , Apr 13, 2004View Source--- In email@example.com, Boris Shapiro <elenhil@u...>
> Should we analyze the texts as a unique piece ofThe question Boris had raised long ago is very interesting. Quenya
> Seventh Age Quenya (probably as spoken in Valinor) and are we
> to get anything interesting from that?
is a language being the expression of the Quendian-culture and
Quendian-mythology in whatever context we use it. The words _Eru_,
_menel_, the expression _i ëa han Ëa_ belong to the mythology
of Tolkien's sub-creation, his _mythopoeia_. In fact every act of
Tolkien's _logopoeia_ is the exploration of his myth. It is the way
every "real" language works (and Tolkien's languages having their
own mythology, their "sub-creative" context are like real langages,
and very unlike the languages of the Esperanto-type).
The prayers (presented in VT 43 and 44) come from the period of the
1950s, when the mediator between the real history and the mythical
history of the Elves and Men was Aelfwine/Elendil (cf. "Dangweth
Pengolodh" in XII:395 from c. 1951-1959). Cannot the Quenya
prayers be the translation made by Elendil (who was to live in 10th-
11th C.) himself? Yes and no. Yes, because on that time there were in
existence already: "Pater Noster", "Gloria Patri (Doxologia
Minor)", "Sub Tuum Praesidium". No, because "Ave Maria" and "Litany
of Loreto" are much younger (their final form was achieved in 16th C.).
In "Qenya Lexicon" we find many words which show that the Elves
(in the conceptual phase of the "Book of the Lost Tales") knew some
elements of the Christian faith. There are terms for Holy Spirit,
Trinity, monks, nuns and monastery. I wonder if Tolkien, translating
the prayers into Quenya (and into the language of the Quendian
mythology - I would call it Christian inculturation into the
mythopoeic context) - had in mind such a possibility that these
prayers could play any role in his fictitious history. Anyway even
if it was "only" a linguistic exercise it is worth an analysis of
how the Quenya terms work incorporated into the Christian context.
- In the post 655 (13/04/2004) Ryzard Derdzinski, replying to Boris Shapiro, questions if the catholic prayers presented in VT 43 and 44 could have beenMessage 5 of 5 , Apr 18, 2004View SourceIn the post 655 (13/04/2004) Ryzard Derdzinski, replying to Boris Shapiro,
questions if the catholic prayers presented in VT 43 and 44 could have been
translations made by Aelfwine/Elendil (who was to live in 10th-11th C.). The
reply was yes and no, because some prayers were already in existence on that
time (Pater Noster, Gloria Patri, Sub Tuum Praesidium), but the others are much
younger (the final form of Ave Maria and Litany of Loreto was achieved in 16th C.).
As Ryzard notes, the question of authorship of the different parts of
the Quendian mythology, on the internal point of view, is always and
interesting but a complicated matter. Internal authorship shifted during
the external evolution of some tales and he sometimes merged the real
and fictional world (like in the LR Appendix where he appears as the
translator of the red Book, not as the author of the novel).
The place of the Catholic prayers in the main work is of course very
special since they do not, _a priori_, belong to the Quendian
mythology. But, as Ryszard remarks pertinently, "Quenya is a language
being the expression of the Quendian-culture and Quendian-mythology in
whatever context we use it" and "every act of Tolkien's _logopoeia_ is the
exploration of his myth". So, the only fact that the prayers were written in
Elvish connects them with the Quendian mythology, even if it creates a kind
But I think this paradox might perhaps be removed or at least find
In his post, Ryzard notes that we find many words in the "Qenya Lexicon"
which show that the Elves (in the conceptual phase of the "Book of the
Lost Tales") knew some elements of the Christian faith (terms for Holy
Spirit, Trinity, monks, nuns and monastery).
In a first version of the present post post (which was returned for
revision !), I remarked that there are several words in the Lexicons
that referred to our 'real, modern, world' and I quoted _Andesalke_,
Salkinôre_ 'Africa' (QL/31, 84), _kalimba(n)_ '"Barbary", Germany',
_kalimabardi_ 'the Germans' (QL/44), _Îverind-_ 'Ireland' (QL/43),
_iPonôrir_ 'the Northlands (Scandinavia)' and _ponôre_ 'Norway' (QL/74).
I tought that these names could give some clues about the authorship of the
Lexicons, but as Carl Hostetter has pointed out in his private reply to my
first post, "there's nothing in there that necessarily refers to our 'real,
modern world'. None of the nations mentioned there were unknown in
even Classical times, and all have their equivalents in classical
Greek and Latin. That Tolkien translates them with modern country
names instead of their Greek, Latin, or even Anglo-Saxon names
is completely in accord with every other gloss in the Lexicons".
This made me think of something else : if the Lexicons are the work of
Aelfwine/Elendil during his sojourn in Tol Eressea, the original
manuscript would have been written in Old English. Hence, the actual
version of the Lexicons must have been translated in modern English
(excatly the same way as the LR is presented as the translation of the
Red Book in English, merging real and fictional world).
Some words in the Lexicons are given with Anglo-Saxon, Latin or Greek
glosses. This suggests, either that these non-English references were
left intentionally by the translator or that the Lexicons are much
latter, dating from the XXth century, and are the work of a man with
very good linguistic knowledge that had some knowledge of the Quendian
world and mythology.
We can find in Tolkien's work some characters that fit this portrait,
characters that lived in our modern age and who had dreams or visions
of the mythical world of the Elves: Audoin and Alboin Errol of "The
Lost Road" (V/36-106, c. 1936-37) and Arundel Lowdham of the Notion
Club (IX/145-330, c. 1945-46). Even if he never finished none of his
time-travel stories, the fact that Tolkien began two stories of this
kind seem to show that Tolkien took this narrative process to heart.
Of course, the mediators cited before are older than the prayers,
externally speaking (30s and 40s vs. 50s), but a philologist like
Lowdham might have been fully qualified to try a translation in
"Avallonian" of some known catholic prayers (and even several attempts
for some of these prayers !).
Finally, we have a third possibility. We could think of some Elves who
would have chosen to stay in the mortal lands and who would have
withered to become spirits (a very old conception dating from the
_Lost Tales_). Theses spirits may have contacted some open-minded
humans and instructed them about the matter of the Elves, their
history and their languages. Theses spirit-Elves could even have
taught their tongues to a well-known English philologist of the XXth