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Re: Yet more on voiced stops

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  • fr3dr1k_s
    ... Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the word coo . The
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002
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      Candon McLean wrote:

      >>> They can only be biphonemic.
      >> Evidence? :-) I do agree, but still... :-)
      >The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows
      >overlapping wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and
      >before its wave has ended [S] begins.

      Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For
      example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the
      word "coo". The labialized feature of the vowel is anticipated in
      the realization of the velar stop, [k^w]. That would be an example
      of coarticulation. But "biphonemic" of course refers to a
      sequence of two phonemes. These phonemes may or may not
      be further analysed into sequences of sounds on the phonetic
      level, but that is irrelevant here. It is important to remember that
      phonemes, while the smallest units of speech *phonologically*
      speaking, are not necessarily "atomic" *phonetically* speaking
      but may be broken down into smaller segments of sound.
      Affricates are sequences of homorganic sounds on the phonetic
      level that make up single units on the phonological level: they
      are phonemes (no scare quotes). In his _Course in Phonetics_
      earlier referred to, Ladefoged points out that "From the point of
      view of a phonologist considering the sound patterns of English,
      the palato-alveolar affricates are plainly single units" (3rd ed.,
      63). I don't have the 4th ed. though.

      Sorry if I missed your point and just reiterated the obvious.

      /Fredrik Ström
    • Candon McLean
      Ivan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn t relevant to phonemes (or something similar to that effect). I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds like
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002
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        Ivan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn't relevant to
        phonemes (or something similar to that effect).

        I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds like [tS] are phonemes.

        The point I was trying to make is that these kind of complex phonemes
        with coarticulated sounds can't be split, and so if we wanted to test
        whether Quenya clusters are phonemic or not, we should be able to do
        so by focusing on the coarticulated properties of these sounds (like
        affricates, etc).

        Candon


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      • anthonyappleyard
        Apart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between vowels are known? If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake by
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 11, 2002
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          Apart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between
          vowels are known?

          If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake by
          Tolkien and if he had lived longer he would have found and corrected
          it.

          [It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composed
          by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]
        • Eleder
          ... The best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_ was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, lament , is the #5885 message of
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 12, 2002
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            > [It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composed
            > by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]

            The best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_
            was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, "lament", is the #5885
            message of Elfling, by Ales Bican:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/5885

            As he said, it's hard to believe that it could be a typo by Tolkien,
            since the word _Aldudénie_ appears in different manuscripts and
            texts carefully revised by Tolkien.

            By the way, I introduce myself in this list, as member of the
            Lambenor Spanish-speaking mailing-list, and the Team of
            Languages of the Spanish Tolkien Society.

            ------
            Eleder

            "La fantasía se inocula en tu intelecto cual vacuna contra la sórdida
            subsistencia, cuando el aguijón de John Ronald Reuel Tolkien se
            inserta en los patológicos hemisferios cerebrales de todo lector que
            padezca el acierto de acceder a su terapéutica saga."
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