Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Lambengolmor] Quenya pl. _-r_ (was "Historical explanation")

Expand Messages
  • Andreas Johansson
    ... [snip] ... [snip] ... Clarification: I meant superior expertise as regards what is and what is not found in primary-world languages, not Tolkienian ones.
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 20, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Quoting Andreas Johansson <andjo@...>:

      > Quoting David Kiltz <dkiltz@...>:
      >
      > > On 14.11.2003, at 20:30, Andreas Johansson wrote:
      > >
      > > > I have repeatedly suggested that the Q nominal -r is not an innovation
      > > > "out of thin air", but simply the verbal ending applied also to nouns.
      > >
      > > Typologically that would, AFAIK, be unique.
      > [snip]
      > > So, whatever its ultimate origin, the Q. plural marker _-r_ seems to be
      > > entirely nominal in origin.
      >
      > I'm not about to question your superior expertise in these matters
      [snip]
      >
      > [Perceived "superior expertise" should never be an issue on this list. The
      > only one with superior expertise is J.R.R. Tolkien, and arguments should
      > stand or fall based on the evidence in Tolkien's writings, not on the
      > authority of the scholar proposing a particular theory.
      [snip]
      > -- PHW]

      Clarification: I meant superior expertise as regards what is and what is not
      found in primary-world languages, not Tolkienian ones.

      I, however, see that my snipping above made Patrick's misinterpretation pretty
      much inevitable, for which I apologize.

      Andreas

      [No apology is necessary -- my comments regarding "superior expertise"
      were not meant to _admonish_ you, but to _encourage_ you to not indimidate
      yourself into abandoning a theory purely on the assumption that others have
      a broader knowledge. And this is as true regarding references to primary-
      world languages on this list as it is to Tolkien's languages. -- PHW]
    • Hans
      It will be best to refer to JRRT himself for an answer... even though there will be more than one. Unfortunately, I don t own PE 11, so I have to quote after a
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 22, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        It will be best to refer to JRRT himself for an answer... even though
        there will be more than one. Unfortunately, I don't own PE 11, so I
        have to quote after a secondary source, VT40, which used the early
        lexicons to analyse Narqelion. Here's a comparision of case endings
        (genitive-ablative) in Qenya and Goldogrin, singular and plural: "with
        -ion cp. Q -ion, both being double plural -i + ô + n; with -a cp. Q
        -o, [from] ô; with -thon cp. Q -ron, where -r- is from the
        nom[inatives,] for -son; with -n cp Q -n" (VT40:9/10).

        This is supposed to mean that both -i and -n were plural markers, and
        that -r is a nominative (plural, obviously) coming from rhotacism and
        compares to Goldogrin -th. So it isn't an innovation at all: "-th is
        original and [the] same as Q -r".

        Obviously, JRRT hesitated whether this is was the right way, and
        explained:

        "The existence in G. of an -r plural sign in verbs has given rise to
        the conjecture (coupled with [the] Q. form gen.pl. -ron) that G -th
        does not represent Q -r[,] but that -r is a true plural ending (i.e. r
        liquid) and -tt == Q -t dual". (both VT40:22, from PE11:10)

        This would mean three original plural markers -i, -n (from former -m,
        as the entry 3O- in Etymologies suggests) and -r. We are told it is
        also a plural marker in G verbs, but that seems to be secondary.
        At that time, -r was not always a plural marker in Q verbs, as
        examples in the Secret Vice poems show: "i lunte linganer... i súru
        laustaner" (MC:216), the subjects (boat and wind) being singular.
        The above quote seems to indicate that G -th was originally dual. It
        may be that Noldorin -ath was interpreted as dual in origin, too, but
        we know that this notion was dismissed, later. "ath: Though it cd. be
        an S. form of Q. atta '2', it is not in fact related, nor a sign of
        dual". (Letters: 427)

        So, externally speaking, we have -r as a noun plural in Q (even in
        Qenya) before it became a plural marker in Q verbs. There's also no
        hint at an internal derivation devised later.

        People seem to be surprised because this gives 3 original plural
        markers in Quenya. The surprise may be provoked by the fact that most
        modern European languages have only one (English has one and a half,
        remember "geese" and "mice"). German has -e, -er, -(e)n, -s, depending
        on the noun, and the occasional Umlaut, so why should Quenya have only
        one or two?

        Hans
      • David Kiltz
        ... Good point. Yet the question is, in my opinion, how frequent are this kind of derivations ? Of course, from a *synchronic* point of view _vala_ and _valar_
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 22, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          On 20.11.2003, at 07:40, Andreas Johansson wrote:

          > <snip>
          > early Quenya was apparently happy to use verbs as nouns; "Quendi and
          > Eldar" informs us that _Vala_ was originally a verb _vala-_ "has
          > power", and offers the
          > translation "they have power" for _valar_ (XI:403). Could this not
          > represent a
          > way in which a verbal ending might have sneaked into nominal
          > inflection?

          Good point. Yet the question is, in my opinion, how frequent are this
          kind of derivations ? Of course, from a *synchronic* point of view
          _vala_ and _valar_ are verbal forms (whatever their ultimate origin).
          Note, however, that Tolkien says "...these words are from the point of
          *Q* structure verbal in origin..." (emphasis mine). This doesn't, IMHO,
          say anything about their *Eldarin* origin. And yes, in some cases a
          'zero derivation' seems possible. _Ea_ is another such case and,
          slightly different _eques_ cited by Patrick H. Wynne. Such direct
          nominalizations do also, e.g. occur in English, cf. something like _a
          caveat_. However, as far as I can see, such derivations are rare at
          best in Quenya. Other agental construction show derivational morphology
          and are attested much more amply (e.g. sundóma +r(o), -ô, -mo etc.).
          The words _Vala_ and by all probability _Ea_ are translations of
          Valarin words. I wouldn't be surprised if that played a role in their
          peculiar derivation. _Eques_, on the other hand, was deliberately
          re-interpreted with an analogical plural _equessi_ which exactly shows
          *no* verbal morphology. So, at least in the case of _eques_ it is not
          really correct to say that "Quenya uses verbs as nouns".It is
          interesting in this context to ask why the plural of _Vala_ isn't
          +_valante_. Possibly, in the case of _vala/Vala_ the same is true.
          So, while your point on _valar/Valar_ is a very acute and enticing
          observation, I still doubt that these, apparently few, forms could have
          caused the creation of an entire plural paradigm. Moreover, if indeed,
          the plural of the verbs would have been taken over by nouns, I wonder
          why they didn't in the case of nouns in _-e_ as there must have been
          lots of instances of past tense plurals in _-er_. ( _Tyeller_ [LR3:502]
          might be interpreted in that way, but it is, as far as frequency is
          concerned, an exception).

          David Kiltz
        • Andreas Johansson
          ... I m not clear why you assume the verbal -r in G to be secondary? The passage you quote does not appear to say either way. ... Well, multiple pl formations
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 23, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Quoting Hans <gentlebeldin@...>:

            > "The existence in G. of an -r plural sign in verbs has given rise to
            > the conjecture (coupled with [the] Q. form gen.pl. -ron) that G -th
            > does not represent Q -r[,] but that -r is a true plural ending (i.e. r
            > liquid) and -tt == Q -t dual". (both VT40:22, from PE11:10)
            >
            > This would mean three original plural markers -i, -n (from former -m,
            > as the entry 3O- in Etymologies suggests) and -r. We are told it is
            > also a plural marker in G verbs, but that seems to be secondary.

            I'm not clear why you assume the verbal -r in G to be secondary? The passage
            you quote does not appear to say either way.

            > People seem to be surprised because this gives 3 original plural
            > markers in Quenya. The surprise may be provoked by the fact that most
            > modern European languages have only one (English has one and a half,
            > remember "geese" and "mice"). German has -e, -er, -(e)n, -s, depending
            > on the noun, and the occasional Umlaut, so why should Quenya have only
            > one or two?

            Well, multiple pl formations are common enough in modern Europe, aren't they?
            Besides German, we've got the rest of Germanic family; Dutch has -en and -s,
            Swedish has -ar, -er, -or, -n and -0 (zero), and so on. Italian has a couple,
            as has Rumanian, if I remember correctly. And if you count 1.5 for English,
            I figure you'd get something similar for French. I've heard Welsh has nineteen.

            More on topic, there's of course no reason Quenya could not have had three or
            more inherited nominal pl markers. It's just that that we know that in the
            scenario as JRRT imagined it in later years, -r was a Quenya innovation, at
            least as a pl marker on nominatives; we've for instance got _Banyai_ as an
            early nom pl of _Vanya_ in PM:402.

            I guess it's always possible that nominal pl -r is an innovation _only in
            nominatives_ - there's to my knowledge no evidence to say whether the -r in
            allative pl _-nnar_ and ablative pl _-llor_ is "original" or not. But since
            these case forms are relatively infrequent, we'd rather expected the
            nominative pl to spread to them rather than vice versa.

            Andreas
          • Rich Alderson
            ... Of course, you have cited *three* English formations (-s, umlaut, and zero ending). There is also the -en plural formation (ox-oxen, brother-brethren,
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 23, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              > People seem to be surprised because this gives 3 original plural markers in
              > Quenya. The surprise may be provoked by the fact that most modern European
              > languages have only one (English has one and a half, remember "geese" and
              > "mice"). German has -e, -er, -(e)n, -s, depending on the noun, and the
              > occasional Umlaut, so why should Quenya have only one or two?

              Of course, you have cited *three* English formations (-s, umlaut, and zero
              ending). There is also the -en plural formation (ox-oxen, brother-brethren,
              extended analogically to computers in VAX-VAXen), and the borrowed Latin -i or
              -ii which is more often misused than used correctly. The -s formant has been
              spreading through the vocabulary at the expense of the others for centuries,
              but enough remnants exist for naive native speakers to have a feel for their
              usage.

              Why would you expect JRRT, a Germanic philologist, to stint on plurals in his
              languages?

              Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon |
              quenya@... | \ / campaign against |
              "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and |
              --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings |
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.