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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Yet more on voiced stops

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  • Ivan A Derzhanski
    ... [...] ... [...] ... Acoustic phonetics is not about phonemes at all. Whatever sequence of wave forms the language treats as a phoneme is by virtue of that
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002
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      Candon McLean wrote:
      > --- pavel_iosad <pavel_iosad@...> wrote:
      > >>> are the 'nasalised' voiced stops /mb nd сg/
      > >>> single phonemes, or biphonemic sequences?
      [...]
      > >> They can only be biphonemic.
      [...]
      > The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows overlapping
      > wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and before
      > its wave has ended [S] begins.

      Acoustic phonetics is not about phonemes at all. Whatever sequence
      of wave forms the language treats as a phoneme is by virtue of that
      fact a phoneme.

      > > I believe coarticulation in Quenya at least isn't the primary test,
      > > as demonstrated by the fact that the Quenya _qu_, which was
      > > pronounced as a cluster [...], was still permitted word-initially,
      > > demonstrating it was not a cluster phonologically.
      >
      > I'm not sure I follow this. In English we have word initial /kw/
      > and it is biphonemic. Quenya <qu> seems to be of the same sort.

      English allows word-initial (and generally syllable-initial)
      clusters. Quenya doesn't. So the evidence of English isn't
      automatically relevant to Quenya.

      > Pavel wrote:
      > > Besides, the syllabification test allows both interpretations, as
      > > the whole of the /nd/ group obviously is included in the prceding
      > > syllable, as per the Maximum Onset Principle. Quenya words do not
      > > start in /d/, ergo /d/ is an impermissible onset. Ditto with /nd/,
      [...]
      > So, your claim is because /d/ is never an onset /nd/ will not split
      > word internally. I don't believe this _has_ to be true.

      As a matter of fact, it does not. Think of Finnish medial /ht/.
      It has to split as /h/+/t/, because a cluster can be neither an
      onset nor a coda, but we have to live with the fact that /h/ can
      be a coda of a non-final syllable (though not a final one).

      --Ivan
    • fr3dr1k_s
      ... Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the word coo . The
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002
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        Candon McLean wrote:

        >>> They can only be biphonemic.
        >> Evidence? :-) I do agree, but still... :-)
        >The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows
        >overlapping wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and
        >before its wave has ended [S] begins.

        Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For
        example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the
        word "coo". The labialized feature of the vowel is anticipated in
        the realization of the velar stop, [k^w]. That would be an example
        of coarticulation. But "biphonemic" of course refers to a
        sequence of two phonemes. These phonemes may or may not
        be further analysed into sequences of sounds on the phonetic
        level, but that is irrelevant here. It is important to remember that
        phonemes, while the smallest units of speech *phonologically*
        speaking, are not necessarily "atomic" *phonetically* speaking
        but may be broken down into smaller segments of sound.
        Affricates are sequences of homorganic sounds on the phonetic
        level that make up single units on the phonological level: they
        are phonemes (no scare quotes). In his _Course in Phonetics_
        earlier referred to, Ladefoged points out that "From the point of
        view of a phonologist considering the sound patterns of English,
        the palato-alveolar affricates are plainly single units" (3rd ed.,
        63). I don't have the 4th ed. though.

        Sorry if I missed your point and just reiterated the obvious.

        /Fredrik Ström
      • Candon McLean
        Ivan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn t relevant to phonemes (or something similar to that effect). I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds like
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002
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          Ivan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn't relevant to
          phonemes (or something similar to that effect).

          I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds like [tS] are phonemes.

          The point I was trying to make is that these kind of complex phonemes
          with coarticulated sounds can't be split, and so if we wanted to test
          whether Quenya clusters are phonemic or not, we should be able to do
          so by focusing on the coarticulated properties of these sounds (like
          affricates, etc).

          Candon


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        • anthonyappleyard
          Apart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between vowels are known? If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake by
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 11, 2002
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            Apart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between
            vowels are known?

            If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake by
            Tolkien and if he had lived longer he would have found and corrected
            it.

            [It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composed
            by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]
          • Eleder
            ... The best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_ was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, lament , is the #5885 message of
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 12, 2002
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              > [It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composed
              > by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]

              The best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_
              was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, "lament", is the #5885
              message of Elfling, by Ales Bican:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/5885

              As he said, it's hard to believe that it could be a typo by Tolkien,
              since the word _Aldudénie_ appears in different manuscripts and
              texts carefully revised by Tolkien.

              By the way, I introduce myself in this list, as member of the
              Lambenor Spanish-speaking mailing-list, and the Team of
              Languages of the Spanish Tolkien Society.

              ------
              Eleder

              "La fantasía se inocula en tu intelecto cual vacuna contra la sórdida
              subsistencia, cuando el aguijón de John Ronald Reuel Tolkien se
              inserta en los patológicos hemisferios cerebrales de todo lector que
              padezca el acierto de acceder a su terapéutica saga."
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