- ... [...] ... [...] ... Acoustic phonetics is not about phonemes at all. Whatever sequence of wave forms the language treats as a phoneme is by virtue of thatMessage 1 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002View SourceCandon McLean wrote:
> --- pavel_iosad <pavel_iosad@...> wrote:[...]
> >>> are the 'nasalised' voiced stops /mb nd сg/
> >>> single phonemes, or biphonemic sequences?
> >> They can only be biphonemic.[...]
> The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows overlappingAcoustic phonetics is not about phonemes at all. Whatever sequence
> wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and before
> its wave has ended [S] begins.
of wave forms the language treats as a phoneme is by virtue of that
fact a phoneme.
> > I believe coarticulation in Quenya at least isn't the primary test,English allows word-initial (and generally syllable-initial)
> > as demonstrated by the fact that the Quenya _qu_, which was
> > pronounced as a cluster [...], was still permitted word-initially,
> > demonstrating it was not a cluster phonologically.
> I'm not sure I follow this. In English we have word initial /kw/
> and it is biphonemic. Quenya <qu> seems to be of the same sort.
clusters. Quenya doesn't. So the evidence of English isn't
automatically relevant to Quenya.
> Pavel wrote:[...]
> > Besides, the syllabification test allows both interpretations, as
> > the whole of the /nd/ group obviously is included in the prceding
> > syllable, as per the Maximum Onset Principle. Quenya words do not
> > start in /d/, ergo /d/ is an impermissible onset. Ditto with /nd/,
> So, your claim is because /d/ is never an onset /nd/ will not splitAs a matter of fact, it does not. Think of Finnish medial /ht/.
> word internally. I don't believe this _has_ to be true.
It has to split as /h/+/t/, because a cluster can be neither an
onset nor a coda, but we have to live with the fact that /h/ can
be a coda of a non-final syllable (though not a final one).
- ... Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the word coo . TheMessage 2 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002View SourceCandon McLean wrote:
>>> They can only be biphonemic.Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For
>> Evidence? :-) I do agree, but still... :-)
>The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows
>overlapping wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and
>before its wave has ended [S] begins.
example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the
word "coo". The labialized feature of the vowel is anticipated in
the realization of the velar stop, [k^w]. That would be an example
of coarticulation. But "biphonemic" of course refers to a
sequence of two phonemes. These phonemes may or may not
be further analysed into sequences of sounds on the phonetic
level, but that is irrelevant here. It is important to remember that
phonemes, while the smallest units of speech *phonologically*
speaking, are not necessarily "atomic" *phonetically* speaking
but may be broken down into smaller segments of sound.
Affricates are sequences of homorganic sounds on the phonetic
level that make up single units on the phonological level: they
are phonemes (no scare quotes). In his _Course in Phonetics_
earlier referred to, Ladefoged points out that "From the point of
view of a phonologist considering the sound patterns of English,
the palato-alveolar affricates are plainly single units" (3rd ed.,
63). I don't have the 4th ed. though.
Sorry if I missed your point and just reiterated the obvious.
- Ivan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn t relevant to phonemes (or something similar to that effect). I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds likeMessage 3 of 15 , Jun 8, 2002View SourceIvan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn't relevant to
phonemes (or something similar to that effect).
I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds like [tS] are phonemes.
The point I was trying to make is that these kind of complex phonemes
with coarticulated sounds can't be split, and so if we wanted to test
whether Quenya clusters are phonemic or not, we should be able to do
so by focusing on the coarticulated properties of these sounds (like
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- Apart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between vowels are known? If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake byMessage 4 of 15 , Jun 11, 2002View SourceApart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between
vowels are known?
If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake by
Tolkien and if he had lived longer he would have found and corrected
[It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composed
by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]
- ... The best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_ was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, lament , is the #5885 message ofMessage 5 of 15 , Jun 12, 2002View Source
> [It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composedThe best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_
> by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]
was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, "lament", is the #5885
message of Elfling, by Ales Bican:
As he said, it's hard to believe that it could be a typo by Tolkien,
since the word _Aldudénie_ appears in different manuscripts and
texts carefully revised by Tolkien.
By the way, I introduce myself in this list, as member of the
Lambenor Spanish-speaking mailing-list, and the Team of
Languages of the Spanish Tolkien Society.
"La fantasía se inocula en tu intelecto cual vacuna contra la sórdida
subsistencia, cuando el aguijón de John Ronald Reuel Tolkien se
inserta en los patológicos hemisferios cerebrales de todo lector que
padezca el acierto de acceder a su terapéutica saga."