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Re: [Lambengolmor] Quenya pl. _-r_ (was "Historical explanation")

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  • Andreas Johansson
    ... [snip] ... I m not about to question your superior expertise in these matters, but early Quenya was apparently happy to use verbs as nouns; Quendi and
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 19, 2003
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      Quoting David Kiltz <dkiltz@...>:

      > On 14.11.2003, at 20:30, Andreas Johansson wrote:
      >
      > > I have repeatedly suggested that the Q nominal -r is not an innovation
      > > "out of thin air", but simply the verbal ending applied also to nouns.
      >
      > Typologically that would, AFAIK, be unique.
      [snip]
      > So, whatever its ultimate origin, the Q. plural marker _-r_ seems to be
      > entirely nominal in origin.

      I'm not about to question your superior expertise in these matters, but early
      Quenya was apparently happy to use verbs as nouns; "Quendi and Eldar" informs
      us that _Vala_ was originally a verb _vala-_ "has power", and offers the
      translation "they have power" for _valar_ (XI:403). Could this not represent a
      way in which a verbal ending might have sneaked into nominal inflection?

      Andreas

      [Perceived "superior expertise" should never be an issue on this list. The
      only one with superior expertise is J.R.R. Tolkien, and arguments should
      stand or fall based on the evidence in Tolkien's writings, not on the
      authority of the scholar proposing a particular theory.

      The passage Andreas refers to above also cites _eques_ as a Q. verb
      form that also came to be used as a noun. Earlier in Q&E Tolkien writes:
      "In Quenya the form _eques_ originally meaning 'said he, said someone'
      (see Note 29) was also used as a noun _eques_, with the analogical
      plural _equessi_, 'a saying, dictum, a quotation from someone's
      uttered words', hence also 'a saying, a current or proverbial dictum'."
      (XI:392) -- PHW]
    • Andreas Johansson
      ... [snip] ... [snip] ... Clarification: I meant superior expertise as regards what is and what is not found in primary-world languages, not Tolkienian ones.
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 20, 2003
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        Quoting Andreas Johansson <andjo@...>:

        > Quoting David Kiltz <dkiltz@...>:
        >
        > > On 14.11.2003, at 20:30, Andreas Johansson wrote:
        > >
        > > > I have repeatedly suggested that the Q nominal -r is not an innovation
        > > > "out of thin air", but simply the verbal ending applied also to nouns.
        > >
        > > Typologically that would, AFAIK, be unique.
        > [snip]
        > > So, whatever its ultimate origin, the Q. plural marker _-r_ seems to be
        > > entirely nominal in origin.
        >
        > I'm not about to question your superior expertise in these matters
        [snip]
        >
        > [Perceived "superior expertise" should never be an issue on this list. The
        > only one with superior expertise is J.R.R. Tolkien, and arguments should
        > stand or fall based on the evidence in Tolkien's writings, not on the
        > authority of the scholar proposing a particular theory.
        [snip]
        > -- PHW]

        Clarification: I meant superior expertise as regards what is and what is not
        found in primary-world languages, not Tolkienian ones.

        I, however, see that my snipping above made Patrick's misinterpretation pretty
        much inevitable, for which I apologize.

        Andreas

        [No apology is necessary -- my comments regarding "superior expertise"
        were not meant to _admonish_ you, but to _encourage_ you to not indimidate
        yourself into abandoning a theory purely on the assumption that others have
        a broader knowledge. And this is as true regarding references to primary-
        world languages on this list as it is to Tolkien's languages. -- PHW]
      • Hans
        It will be best to refer to JRRT himself for an answer... even though there will be more than one. Unfortunately, I don t own PE 11, so I have to quote after a
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 22, 2003
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          It will be best to refer to JRRT himself for an answer... even though
          there will be more than one. Unfortunately, I don't own PE 11, so I
          have to quote after a secondary source, VT40, which used the early
          lexicons to analyse Narqelion. Here's a comparision of case endings
          (genitive-ablative) in Qenya and Goldogrin, singular and plural: "with
          -ion cp. Q -ion, both being double plural -i + ô + n; with -a cp. Q
          -o, [from] ô; with -thon cp. Q -ron, where -r- is from the
          nom[inatives,] for -son; with -n cp Q -n" (VT40:9/10).

          This is supposed to mean that both -i and -n were plural markers, and
          that -r is a nominative (plural, obviously) coming from rhotacism and
          compares to Goldogrin -th. So it isn't an innovation at all: "-th is
          original and [the] same as Q -r".

          Obviously, JRRT hesitated whether this is was the right way, and
          explained:

          "The existence in G. of an -r plural sign in verbs has given rise to
          the conjecture (coupled with [the] Q. form gen.pl. -ron) that G -th
          does not represent Q -r[,] but that -r is a true plural ending (i.e. r
          liquid) and -tt == Q -t dual". (both VT40:22, from PE11:10)

          This would mean three original plural markers -i, -n (from former -m,
          as the entry 3O- in Etymologies suggests) and -r. We are told it is
          also a plural marker in G verbs, but that seems to be secondary.
          At that time, -r was not always a plural marker in Q verbs, as
          examples in the Secret Vice poems show: "i lunte linganer... i súru
          laustaner" (MC:216), the subjects (boat and wind) being singular.
          The above quote seems to indicate that G -th was originally dual. It
          may be that Noldorin -ath was interpreted as dual in origin, too, but
          we know that this notion was dismissed, later. "ath: Though it cd. be
          an S. form of Q. atta '2', it is not in fact related, nor a sign of
          dual". (Letters: 427)

          So, externally speaking, we have -r as a noun plural in Q (even in
          Qenya) before it became a plural marker in Q verbs. There's also no
          hint at an internal derivation devised later.

          People seem to be surprised because this gives 3 original plural
          markers in Quenya. The surprise may be provoked by the fact that most
          modern European languages have only one (English has one and a half,
          remember "geese" and "mice"). German has -e, -er, -(e)n, -s, depending
          on the noun, and the occasional Umlaut, so why should Quenya have only
          one or two?

          Hans
        • David Kiltz
          ... Good point. Yet the question is, in my opinion, how frequent are this kind of derivations ? Of course, from a *synchronic* point of view _vala_ and _valar_
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 22, 2003
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            On 20.11.2003, at 07:40, Andreas Johansson wrote:

            > <snip>
            > early Quenya was apparently happy to use verbs as nouns; "Quendi and
            > Eldar" informs us that _Vala_ was originally a verb _vala-_ "has
            > power", and offers the
            > translation "they have power" for _valar_ (XI:403). Could this not
            > represent a
            > way in which a verbal ending might have sneaked into nominal
            > inflection?

            Good point. Yet the question is, in my opinion, how frequent are this
            kind of derivations ? Of course, from a *synchronic* point of view
            _vala_ and _valar_ are verbal forms (whatever their ultimate origin).
            Note, however, that Tolkien says "...these words are from the point of
            *Q* structure verbal in origin..." (emphasis mine). This doesn't, IMHO,
            say anything about their *Eldarin* origin. And yes, in some cases a
            'zero derivation' seems possible. _Ea_ is another such case and,
            slightly different _eques_ cited by Patrick H. Wynne. Such direct
            nominalizations do also, e.g. occur in English, cf. something like _a
            caveat_. However, as far as I can see, such derivations are rare at
            best in Quenya. Other agental construction show derivational morphology
            and are attested much more amply (e.g. sundóma +r(o), -ô, -mo etc.).
            The words _Vala_ and by all probability _Ea_ are translations of
            Valarin words. I wouldn't be surprised if that played a role in their
            peculiar derivation. _Eques_, on the other hand, was deliberately
            re-interpreted with an analogical plural _equessi_ which exactly shows
            *no* verbal morphology. So, at least in the case of _eques_ it is not
            really correct to say that "Quenya uses verbs as nouns".It is
            interesting in this context to ask why the plural of _Vala_ isn't
            +_valante_. Possibly, in the case of _vala/Vala_ the same is true.
            So, while your point on _valar/Valar_ is a very acute and enticing
            observation, I still doubt that these, apparently few, forms could have
            caused the creation of an entire plural paradigm. Moreover, if indeed,
            the plural of the verbs would have been taken over by nouns, I wonder
            why they didn't in the case of nouns in _-e_ as there must have been
            lots of instances of past tense plurals in _-er_. ( _Tyeller_ [LR3:502]
            might be interpreted in that way, but it is, as far as frequency is
            concerned, an exception).

            David Kiltz
          • Andreas Johansson
            ... I m not clear why you assume the verbal -r in G to be secondary? The passage you quote does not appear to say either way. ... Well, multiple pl formations
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 23, 2003
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              Quoting Hans <gentlebeldin@...>:

              > "The existence in G. of an -r plural sign in verbs has given rise to
              > the conjecture (coupled with [the] Q. form gen.pl. -ron) that G -th
              > does not represent Q -r[,] but that -r is a true plural ending (i.e. r
              > liquid) and -tt == Q -t dual". (both VT40:22, from PE11:10)
              >
              > This would mean three original plural markers -i, -n (from former -m,
              > as the entry 3O- in Etymologies suggests) and -r. We are told it is
              > also a plural marker in G verbs, but that seems to be secondary.

              I'm not clear why you assume the verbal -r in G to be secondary? The passage
              you quote does not appear to say either way.

              > People seem to be surprised because this gives 3 original plural
              > markers in Quenya. The surprise may be provoked by the fact that most
              > modern European languages have only one (English has one and a half,
              > remember "geese" and "mice"). German has -e, -er, -(e)n, -s, depending
              > on the noun, and the occasional Umlaut, so why should Quenya have only
              > one or two?

              Well, multiple pl formations are common enough in modern Europe, aren't they?
              Besides German, we've got the rest of Germanic family; Dutch has -en and -s,
              Swedish has -ar, -er, -or, -n and -0 (zero), and so on. Italian has a couple,
              as has Rumanian, if I remember correctly. And if you count 1.5 for English,
              I figure you'd get something similar for French. I've heard Welsh has nineteen.

              More on topic, there's of course no reason Quenya could not have had three or
              more inherited nominal pl markers. It's just that that we know that in the
              scenario as JRRT imagined it in later years, -r was a Quenya innovation, at
              least as a pl marker on nominatives; we've for instance got _Banyai_ as an
              early nom pl of _Vanya_ in PM:402.

              I guess it's always possible that nominal pl -r is an innovation _only in
              nominatives_ - there's to my knowledge no evidence to say whether the -r in
              allative pl _-nnar_ and ablative pl _-llor_ is "original" or not. But since
              these case forms are relatively infrequent, we'd rather expected the
              nominative pl to spread to them rather than vice versa.

              Andreas
            • Rich Alderson
              ... Of course, you have cited *three* English formations (-s, umlaut, and zero ending). There is also the -en plural formation (ox-oxen, brother-brethren,
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 23, 2003
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                > People seem to be surprised because this gives 3 original plural markers in
                > Quenya. The surprise may be provoked by the fact that most modern European
                > languages have only one (English has one and a half, remember "geese" and
                > "mice"). German has -e, -er, -(e)n, -s, depending on the noun, and the
                > occasional Umlaut, so why should Quenya have only one or two?

                Of course, you have cited *three* English formations (-s, umlaut, and zero
                ending). There is also the -en plural formation (ox-oxen, brother-brethren,
                extended analogically to computers in VAX-VAXen), and the borrowed Latin -i or
                -ii which is more often misused than used correctly. The -s formant has been
                spreading through the vocabulary at the expense of the others for centuries,
                but enough remnants exist for naive native speakers to have a feel for their
                usage.

                Why would you expect JRRT, a Germanic philologist, to stint on plurals in his
                languages?

                Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon |
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