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Re: Verbal agreement and clitics

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  • David Kiltz
    ... I perfectly agree. I adduced Q. _inye_ etc. solely because you had suggested that a 1. sg. in Sindarin should be _ni-_ referring to the entry NI2- in _The
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 5, 2003
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      On 05.11.2003, at 21:51, Aaron Shaw wrote:

      > Unless we can theoretically "unlayer" a word, so to speak, who
      > can say what suffixes, infixes, etc. might have occured in one
      > language and not the other

      I perfectly agree. I adduced Q. _inye_ etc. solely because you had
      suggested that a 1. sg. in Sindarin should be _ni-_ referring to the
      entry NI2- in _The Etymologies_. I simply wanted to illustrate that the
      order of elements nasal+vowel isn't irreversible. Of course, the fact
      that Q. has _inye_ doesn't prove anything for Sindarin.

      On the other hand it is known that 1st and 2nd person pronouns
      (especially singular) tend to be very archaic.

      David Kiltz

      [While I agree with David's statement in general, it isn't clear to me
      that _inye_ exhibits the reversibility of CV- (and VC-) bases. Rather,
      it appears that the basic element is modified, not reversed, to _-nye_,
      and the _sund�ma_ _i_ prefixed. Note that _elye_ seems also to be
      formed in this same manner. CFH]
    • David Kiltz
      ... Quite. Seemingly reversible might have been better. I meant to say that _iN_ (N = any nasal) is quite possible, whatever the exact process that leads to
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 6, 2003
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        On 06.11.2003, at 08:51, Carl Hostetter wrote:

        > While I agree with David's statement in general, it isn't clear to me
        > that _inye_ exhibits the reversibility of CV- (and VC-) bases. Rather,
        > it appears that the basic element is modified, not reversed, to _-nye_,
        > and the _sundóma_ _i_ prefixed. Note that _elye_ seems also to be
        > formed in this same manner. CFH]

        Quite. 'Seemingly reversible' might have been better. I meant to say
        that _iN_ (N == any nasal) is quite possible, whatever the exact process
        that leads to that form. Indeed, I think Carl's suggestion is a very
        good idea. So in _elye_ you would assume influence of the 1st person
        pronoun? In strict analogy we would expect _+ele_ <_*elê_ <_*ele-e_,
        wouldn't we?

        [As my friend and colleague Christopher Gilson once observed,
        "Go not to the Lambengolmor for counsel, for they will say both
        perhaps and maybe". CFH]

        While not noted as such in _The Etymologies_, we might have cases of a
        stem that is virtually INI, ELE with the possibility of left and right
        branching vowels. Just as e.g. ANA 2/NÁ 2 which yields _ná_ 'is', _nat_
        'thing' and _anwa_ 'actual, true' [V:348/374].

        As for the 'm' in S. _im_, there is, perhaps, a faint possibility that
        it has been influenced by the 1st pl. That would, however, be
        typologically unusual.

        David Kiltz
      • Jerome Colburn
        ... ...well, perhaps more likely, I, myself, write inscriptions, I, myself, am writing this inscription, or I, myself, wrote this inscription. But
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 11, 2003
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          At 02:10 PM 11/5/03 +0100, David Kiltz wrote:
          >On 04.11.2003, at 23:54, Aaron Shaw wrote:
          >
          >Still, even in Modern English (correct me if I'm wrong) you
          >wouldn't say **"myself writes this inscription" but rather "I, myself,
          >*write* this inscription".

          ...well, perhaps more likely, "I, myself, write inscriptions," "I, myself,
          am writing this inscription," or "I, myself, wrote this inscription."

          But **"myself writes this inscription" reminds me of the dialectal English
          ascribed to Irish speakers and commonly found in folk texts, where "myself"
          stands for Gaelic _mise_. Yet that too is emphatic rather than reflexive.

          +-------------------------+
          + Airesseo Kolvorno +
          + Jerome Colburn +
          + jcolburn@... +
          +-------------------------+
          "Do you not be happy with me as the translator of the books of you?" -- New
          Yorker cartoon
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