Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Valarin: Blessed, Unblessed versus Unmarred, Marred.

Expand Messages
  • Robert Wilson
    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:00:16 -0000 Patrick H. Wynne ... I have noted this resemblance, and several others between Khuzdul and Valarin:
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 18, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:00:16 -0000 "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...>
      writes:

      > This leaves *_kel�th_ to mean 'mirror', and this Valarin
      > form closely resembles Khuzdul _kheled_ 'glass' in
      > _Kheled-z�ram_ 'Mirrormere', lit. 'glass-pool' (VI:466 n.39).
      > Kh. _kheled_ was borrowed into Sindarin as _hele�_
      > 'glass', which appears in the lake-name _Hele(�)vorn_
      > 'black glass' (ibid.)

      I have noted this resemblance, and several others between Khuzdul and
      Valarin:

      Valarin _a�ata_/_�ata_ "hair of head" (XI:399) and Khuzdul _shath�r_
      "cloud(s)" (LR, VII:174)

      Valarin _machall�m_ "one of the seats of the Valar in the Ring of Doom"
      (XI:399), and _m�chan_ "authority, authoritative decision" (XI:399) and
      Khuzdul _Mahal_ (S:44)

      Ardalambion also lists Valarin _m�chan�z_, pl. _m�chanum�z_
      ""Authorities", used of the greatest Valar, called _Aratar_ in Quenya",
      but without a citation...

      [These forms appear in XI:402. -- PHW]

      Valarin _ulu_/_ullu_ "water" (XI:400,401) and Khuzdul _�l_ "streams"
      (VI:466)

      Also, black speech _gh�sh_ "fire" (LR) seems like it could be related to
      valarin *_igas_ "heat" (isolated from _A��raigas_ "appointed heat" (XI:401).

      --
      Robert Wilson
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      A reminder to all members to please post messages to this list in either ISO Latin 1 or UTF-8 encoding. Otherwise, any non-ASCII characters in your messages
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 19, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        A reminder to all members to please post messages to this list in
        either ISO Latin 1 or UTF-8 encoding. Otherwise, any non-ASCII
        characters in your messages may not appear on a reader's screen
        properly.
      • Edward J. Kloczko
        ... In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman, man_ as : The Valarin element _aman, man_ blessed, holy learned from Oromë .
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 20, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

          > This interpretation seems quite likely, although Didier has
          > overlooked a piece of evidence which clarifies the probable
          > meaning of the Valarin element *_aman-_ in these forms.
          > In "Quendi and Eldar" (XI:399), Tolkien notes that Q. _aman_
          > 'blessed, free from evil' was derived from Valarin, and though
          > Pengolodh does not give the original Valarin form, it was
          > said to mean 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

          In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman,
          man_ as :"The Valarin element _aman, man_ 'blessed, holy'
          learned from Oromë".

          [Interesting, but not germaine to the current discussion. The
          note you cite is from "The Shibboleth of Feanor",which was
          written c. 1968 or later, some eight or nine years _later_ than
          "Quendi and Eldar", which dates to 1959-60. I have been lim-
          iting the discussion to only those Valarin forms cited in Q&E,
          which presumably form a relatively self-consistent linguistic
          construct. -- PHW]

          It is the Valarin name of Aman which means 'at peace, in accord
          (with Eru)', not "Aman" as such in Quenya. It could be argued
          that what the Elves translated as "blessed" in Quenya was
          literally in Valarin 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

          [This mostly repeats what I have already said in the passage
          you cited above: that Q. _aman_ meant 'blessed, free from evil',
          and that according to Pengolodh the "original Valarin form" from
          which this Q. _aman_ was derived "was said to mean 'at peace,
          in accord (with Eru)'". So I don't understand what your point of
          disagreement is, unless you are assuming that Q&E says that
          the Q. name _Aman_ applied to the land of the Valar was
          derived from a Valarin name for their land meaning 'at peace,
          in accord (with Eru)'. But this is certainly _not_ the case! Q&E
          does _not_ say that it is "the Valarin name of Aman" which
          means 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'" -- Q&E states that the
          Q. word _aman_ 'blessed, free from evil' was chiefly used
          as the name of the land of the Valar, presumably _in Quenya_.
          Note that Q. _aman_ is given uncapitalized and that Tolkien says
          that it was "chiefly" used to refer to the land of the Valar, not
          that it was _only_ so used; the clear implication is that Q. _aman_
          was also used as a common adjective. And this Quenya adj. was
          borrowed from a Valarin form (presumably also an adj.) meaning
          'at peace' etc., -- but _nothing_ is said of the particular application
          of this original Valarin form _in Valarin_. We do not know what
          the Valar named their own country in their own language. -- PHW]

          > So the literal meaning of _Aþâraphelûn Amanaisâl_ is
          > probably *'Arda at Peace' or *'Arda in Accord (with Eru)',
          > while _Aþâraphelûn Dusamanûðân_ means *'Arda not
          > at Peace' or *'Arda not in Accord (with Eru)'.

          Then Amanaisâl would be the same name as the place-name "Aman"
          in Valarin, which it isn't. The meaning was close for sure, but it is
          probabaly not that of 'at Peace' or 'in Accord (with Eru)' then.

          [No, because as shown above, Tolkien does NOT say in Q&E that the
          Valarin element from which Q. _aman_ was derived was used by the
          Valar themselves to form their own name in Valarin for the land in
          which they dwelt. -- PHW]

          <snip>

          > Another Valarin word that appears to have clear but
          > hitherto unnoted cognates in the languages of Middle-earth
          > is _Phanaikelûth_, Valarin name for the Moon said to literally
          > mean 'bright mirror' (XI:401).

          I have in my dictionnary of Valarin, in "Dictionnaire des langues ds
          Hobbits, etc". p. 27, pointed to the same direction, so to speak.

          [Again, my lack of French defeats me! :-) -- PHW]

          > This leaves *_kelûth_ to mean 'mirror', and this Valarin
          > form closely resembles Khuzdul _kheled_ 'glass' in
          > _Kheled-zâram_ 'Mirrormere', lit. 'glass-pool' (VI:466 n.39).
          > Kh. _kheled_ was borrowed into Sindarin as _heleð_
          > 'glass', which appears in the lake-name _Hele(ð)vorn_
          > 'black glass' (ibid.)

          At that goes here too, see my book on see p. 26. ;-)

          Other cognates I have proposed in my book are:

          - Kh. root *SH-TH-R (> _shathur_, 'cloud') and Val. _shebeth_ 'air' (XI:401).

          - Val. *_ubôz_ '? lord', < _Ul(l)ubôz_, which could mean 'Lord of Waters' --
          one of the titles of Ulmo in 'The Silmarillion' -- and Kh. root *Z-B-D seen in
          _uzbad_ 'lord'.

          - Val. _ul(l)u_ 'water' and Khuzdul _ûl_ 'rivers' (< ? 'weak' root *W-L), is
          obvious.


          Edouard Kloczko
        • Edward J. Kloczko
          ... Tolkien s remark is quite relevant to my scheme. It was written a few years after Quendi and Eldar , that much is true, but it does not contradict the
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 21, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            I wrote :

            > In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman,
            > man_ as :"The Valarin element _aman, man_ 'blessed, holy'
            > learned from Oromë".

            To which Patrick H. Wynne responded:

            > Interesting, but not germaine to the current discussion. The
            > note you cite is from "The Shibboleth of Feanor",which was
            > written c. 1968 or later, some eight or nine years _later_ than
            > "Quendi and Eldar", which dates to 1959-60. I have been lim-
            > iting the discussion to only those Valarin forms cited in Q&E,
            > which presumably form a relatively self-consistent linguistic
            > construct.

            Tolkien's remark is quite relevant to my scheme.
            It was written a few years after "Quendi and Eldar", that much is true,
            but it does not contradict the Valarin language presented. And even
            if Tolkien used to change his mind often, that does imply that he changed
            his mind about the structure or meaning of the word _a-man_ in Valarin,
            or that it did not exist or it existed with another meaning than 'blessed,
            holy' when "Quendi and Eldar" was written.

            And that meaning given to V._ a-man_ clearly supports my theory
            (see below) that Q. _aman_ comes from the Valarin word 'a-man' and
            not from an unknown Valarin word meaning ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’,
            which itself looks very close (in meaning) to a name such as _Mânawenûz_.

            I also wrote:

            > It is the Valarin name of Aman which means 'at peace, in accord
            > (with Eru)', not "Aman" as such in Quenya. It could be argued
            > that what the Elves translated as "blessed" in Quenya was
            > literally in Valarin 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

            To which PHW responded:

            > ... So I don't understand what your point of
            > disagreement is, unless you are assuming that Q&E says that
            > the Q. name _Aman_ applied to the land of the Valar was
            > derived from a Valarin name for their land meaning 'at peace,
            > in accord (with Eru)'. But this is certainly _not_ the case! Q&E
            > does _not_ say that it is "the Valarin name of Aman" which
            > means 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'" ...

            Yes, this is how I read it :

            _aman_ ‘blessed, free from evil’. Chiefly used as the name of the land
            in which the Valar dwelt. V form not given; said to mean ‘at peace, in
            accord (with Eru)’. See Manwe.

            as :

            "... Chiefly used as the name of the land in which the Valar dwelt. V form [of
            the place-name of the land] not given..."

            So, I wonder. Am I alone in reading the above : ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’
            meaning the unknown form given the Land of the Valar in Valarin?

            The V word 'in accord (with Eru)' appears inside the Valarin _Mânawenûz_,
            said to mean ‘One (closest) in accord with Eru’, so it could hardly be said
            as "not given".

            Or does everybody agree with PHW, e.g. Q. _aman_ < from a Valarin word
            not given by Pengolodh/Tolkien but meaning ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’.
            (I hope not. :-) )

            Edouard Kloczko

            [I had to edit out of this current post a fair amount of unnecessary
            citation of Edouard's previous post and my comments added to same --
            a gentle reminder to our contributors to please cite only the bare
            minimum necessary, and feel free to paraphrase or summarize. Thanks!
            -- PHW]
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.