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Re: Valarin: Blessed, Unblessed versus Unmarred, Marred.

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  • Patrick H. Wynne
    Didier has proposed that Valarin _Amanaišâl_ in _Aþâraphelûn Amanaišâl_ Arda Unmarred actually means * blessed rather than unmarred , and that V.
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 18, 2003
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      Didier has proposed that Valarin _Amanaišâl_ in _Aþâraphelûn
      Amanaišâl_ 'Arda Unmarred' actually means *'blessed' rather
      than 'unmarred', and that V. _Dušamanûðân_ in _Aþâraphelûn
      Dušamanûðân_ 'Arda Marred' actually means *'unblessed'
      rather than 'marred'.

      This interpretation seems quite likely, although Didier has
      overlooked a piece of evidence which clarifies the probable
      meaning of the Valarin element *_aman-_ in these forms.
      In "Quendi and Eldar" (XI:399), Tolkien notes that Q. _aman_
      'blessed, free from evil' was derived from Valarin, and though
      Pengolodh does not give the original Valarin form, it was
      said to mean 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

      So the literal meaning of _Aþâraphelûn Amanaišâl_ is
      probably *'Arda at Peace' or *'Arda in Accord (with Eru)',
      while _Aþâraphelûn Dušamanûðân_ means *'Arda not
      at Peace' or *'Arda not in Accord (with Eru)'.

      The apparent negative prefix *_duš-_ in _Dušamanûðân_
      'marred', *'not in accord with Eru' seems deliberately
      intended to recall in both form and function the Greek prefix
      _dys-_, which according to Liddell and Scott's "An Inter-
      mediate Greek-English Lexicon" is a prefix "like _un-_ or
      _mis-_ (in _un-lucky_, _mis-chance_), _destroying the good
      sense_ of a word, or _increasing its bad sense_."

      Another Valarin word that appears to have clear but
      hitherto unnoted cognates in the languages of Middle-earth
      is _Phanaikelûth_, Valarin name for the Moon said to literally
      mean 'bright mirror' (XI:401).

      The element meaning 'bright' is probably *_phanai-_, which
      closely resembles Q. _fana_ 'veil, raiment' (RGEO:74),
      applied to "the radiant and majestic figure of one of the
      great _Valar_" -- for "The High-Elves said that these forms
      were always in some degree radiant, as if suffused with a
      light from within" (ibid.). Compare also Q. _faina-_ 'emit
      light', < base PHAY- 'radiate, send out rays of light' (V:381).

      This leaves *_kelûth_ to mean 'mirror', and this Valarin
      form closely resembles Khuzdul _kheled_ 'glass' in
      _Kheled-zâram_ 'Mirrormere', lit. 'glass-pool' (VI:466 n.39).
      Kh. _kheled_ was borrowed into Sindarin as _heleð_
      'glass', which appears in the lake-name _Hele(ð)vorn_
      'black glass' (ibid.)

      -- Patrick H. Wynne
    • Robert Wilson
      On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:00:16 -0000 Patrick H. Wynne ... I have noted this resemblance, and several others between Khuzdul and Valarin:
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 18, 2003
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        On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:00:16 -0000 "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...>
        writes:

        > This leaves *_kel�th_ to mean 'mirror', and this Valarin
        > form closely resembles Khuzdul _kheled_ 'glass' in
        > _Kheled-z�ram_ 'Mirrormere', lit. 'glass-pool' (VI:466 n.39).
        > Kh. _kheled_ was borrowed into Sindarin as _hele�_
        > 'glass', which appears in the lake-name _Hele(�)vorn_
        > 'black glass' (ibid.)

        I have noted this resemblance, and several others between Khuzdul and
        Valarin:

        Valarin _a�ata_/_�ata_ "hair of head" (XI:399) and Khuzdul _shath�r_
        "cloud(s)" (LR, VII:174)

        Valarin _machall�m_ "one of the seats of the Valar in the Ring of Doom"
        (XI:399), and _m�chan_ "authority, authoritative decision" (XI:399) and
        Khuzdul _Mahal_ (S:44)

        Ardalambion also lists Valarin _m�chan�z_, pl. _m�chanum�z_
        ""Authorities", used of the greatest Valar, called _Aratar_ in Quenya",
        but without a citation...

        [These forms appear in XI:402. -- PHW]

        Valarin _ulu_/_ullu_ "water" (XI:400,401) and Khuzdul _�l_ "streams"
        (VI:466)

        Also, black speech _gh�sh_ "fire" (LR) seems like it could be related to
        valarin *_igas_ "heat" (isolated from _A��raigas_ "appointed heat" (XI:401).

        --
        Robert Wilson
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        A reminder to all members to please post messages to this list in either ISO Latin 1 or UTF-8 encoding. Otherwise, any non-ASCII characters in your messages
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 19, 2003
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          A reminder to all members to please post messages to this list in
          either ISO Latin 1 or UTF-8 encoding. Otherwise, any non-ASCII
          characters in your messages may not appear on a reader's screen
          properly.
        • Edward J. Kloczko
          ... In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman, man_ as : The Valarin element _aman, man_ blessed, holy learned from Oromë .
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 20, 2003
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            Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

            > This interpretation seems quite likely, although Didier has
            > overlooked a piece of evidence which clarifies the probable
            > meaning of the Valarin element *_aman-_ in these forms.
            > In "Quendi and Eldar" (XI:399), Tolkien notes that Q. _aman_
            > 'blessed, free from evil' was derived from Valarin, and though
            > Pengolodh does not give the original Valarin form, it was
            > said to mean 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

            In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman,
            man_ as :"The Valarin element _aman, man_ 'blessed, holy'
            learned from Oromë".

            [Interesting, but not germaine to the current discussion. The
            note you cite is from "The Shibboleth of Feanor",which was
            written c. 1968 or later, some eight or nine years _later_ than
            "Quendi and Eldar", which dates to 1959-60. I have been lim-
            iting the discussion to only those Valarin forms cited in Q&E,
            which presumably form a relatively self-consistent linguistic
            construct. -- PHW]

            It is the Valarin name of Aman which means 'at peace, in accord
            (with Eru)', not "Aman" as such in Quenya. It could be argued
            that what the Elves translated as "blessed" in Quenya was
            literally in Valarin 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

            [This mostly repeats what I have already said in the passage
            you cited above: that Q. _aman_ meant 'blessed, free from evil',
            and that according to Pengolodh the "original Valarin form" from
            which this Q. _aman_ was derived "was said to mean 'at peace,
            in accord (with Eru)'". So I don't understand what your point of
            disagreement is, unless you are assuming that Q&E says that
            the Q. name _Aman_ applied to the land of the Valar was
            derived from a Valarin name for their land meaning 'at peace,
            in accord (with Eru)'. But this is certainly _not_ the case! Q&E
            does _not_ say that it is "the Valarin name of Aman" which
            means 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'" -- Q&E states that the
            Q. word _aman_ 'blessed, free from evil' was chiefly used
            as the name of the land of the Valar, presumably _in Quenya_.
            Note that Q. _aman_ is given uncapitalized and that Tolkien says
            that it was "chiefly" used to refer to the land of the Valar, not
            that it was _only_ so used; the clear implication is that Q. _aman_
            was also used as a common adjective. And this Quenya adj. was
            borrowed from a Valarin form (presumably also an adj.) meaning
            'at peace' etc., -- but _nothing_ is said of the particular application
            of this original Valarin form _in Valarin_. We do not know what
            the Valar named their own country in their own language. -- PHW]

            > So the literal meaning of _Aþâraphelûn Amanaisâl_ is
            > probably *'Arda at Peace' or *'Arda in Accord (with Eru)',
            > while _Aþâraphelûn Dusamanûðân_ means *'Arda not
            > at Peace' or *'Arda not in Accord (with Eru)'.

            Then Amanaisâl would be the same name as the place-name "Aman"
            in Valarin, which it isn't. The meaning was close for sure, but it is
            probabaly not that of 'at Peace' or 'in Accord (with Eru)' then.

            [No, because as shown above, Tolkien does NOT say in Q&E that the
            Valarin element from which Q. _aman_ was derived was used by the
            Valar themselves to form their own name in Valarin for the land in
            which they dwelt. -- PHW]

            <snip>

            > Another Valarin word that appears to have clear but
            > hitherto unnoted cognates in the languages of Middle-earth
            > is _Phanaikelûth_, Valarin name for the Moon said to literally
            > mean 'bright mirror' (XI:401).

            I have in my dictionnary of Valarin, in "Dictionnaire des langues ds
            Hobbits, etc". p. 27, pointed to the same direction, so to speak.

            [Again, my lack of French defeats me! :-) -- PHW]

            > This leaves *_kelûth_ to mean 'mirror', and this Valarin
            > form closely resembles Khuzdul _kheled_ 'glass' in
            > _Kheled-zâram_ 'Mirrormere', lit. 'glass-pool' (VI:466 n.39).
            > Kh. _kheled_ was borrowed into Sindarin as _heleð_
            > 'glass', which appears in the lake-name _Hele(ð)vorn_
            > 'black glass' (ibid.)

            At that goes here too, see my book on see p. 26. ;-)

            Other cognates I have proposed in my book are:

            - Kh. root *SH-TH-R (> _shathur_, 'cloud') and Val. _shebeth_ 'air' (XI:401).

            - Val. *_ubôz_ '? lord', < _Ul(l)ubôz_, which could mean 'Lord of Waters' --
            one of the titles of Ulmo in 'The Silmarillion' -- and Kh. root *Z-B-D seen in
            _uzbad_ 'lord'.

            - Val. _ul(l)u_ 'water' and Khuzdul _ûl_ 'rivers' (< ? 'weak' root *W-L), is
            obvious.


            Edouard Kloczko
          • Edward J. Kloczko
            ... Tolkien s remark is quite relevant to my scheme. It was written a few years after Quendi and Eldar , that much is true, but it does not contradict the
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 21, 2003
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              I wrote :

              > In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman,
              > man_ as :"The Valarin element _aman, man_ 'blessed, holy'
              > learned from Oromë".

              To which Patrick H. Wynne responded:

              > Interesting, but not germaine to the current discussion. The
              > note you cite is from "The Shibboleth of Feanor",which was
              > written c. 1968 or later, some eight or nine years _later_ than
              > "Quendi and Eldar", which dates to 1959-60. I have been lim-
              > iting the discussion to only those Valarin forms cited in Q&E,
              > which presumably form a relatively self-consistent linguistic
              > construct.

              Tolkien's remark is quite relevant to my scheme.
              It was written a few years after "Quendi and Eldar", that much is true,
              but it does not contradict the Valarin language presented. And even
              if Tolkien used to change his mind often, that does imply that he changed
              his mind about the structure or meaning of the word _a-man_ in Valarin,
              or that it did not exist or it existed with another meaning than 'blessed,
              holy' when "Quendi and Eldar" was written.

              And that meaning given to V._ a-man_ clearly supports my theory
              (see below) that Q. _aman_ comes from the Valarin word 'a-man' and
              not from an unknown Valarin word meaning ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’,
              which itself looks very close (in meaning) to a name such as _Mânawenûz_.

              I also wrote:

              > It is the Valarin name of Aman which means 'at peace, in accord
              > (with Eru)', not "Aman" as such in Quenya. It could be argued
              > that what the Elves translated as "blessed" in Quenya was
              > literally in Valarin 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

              To which PHW responded:

              > ... So I don't understand what your point of
              > disagreement is, unless you are assuming that Q&E says that
              > the Q. name _Aman_ applied to the land of the Valar was
              > derived from a Valarin name for their land meaning 'at peace,
              > in accord (with Eru)'. But this is certainly _not_ the case! Q&E
              > does _not_ say that it is "the Valarin name of Aman" which
              > means 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'" ...

              Yes, this is how I read it :

              _aman_ ‘blessed, free from evil’. Chiefly used as the name of the land
              in which the Valar dwelt. V form not given; said to mean ‘at peace, in
              accord (with Eru)’. See Manwe.

              as :

              "... Chiefly used as the name of the land in which the Valar dwelt. V form [of
              the place-name of the land] not given..."

              So, I wonder. Am I alone in reading the above : ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’
              meaning the unknown form given the Land of the Valar in Valarin?

              The V word 'in accord (with Eru)' appears inside the Valarin _Mânawenûz_,
              said to mean ‘One (closest) in accord with Eru’, so it could hardly be said
              as "not given".

              Or does everybody agree with PHW, e.g. Q. _aman_ < from a Valarin word
              not given by Pengolodh/Tolkien but meaning ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’.
              (I hope not. :-) )

              Edouard Kloczko

              [I had to edit out of this current post a fair amount of unnecessary
              citation of Edouard's previous post and my comments added to same --
              a gentle reminder to our contributors to please cite only the bare
              minimum necessary, and feel free to paraphrase or summarize. Thanks!
              -- PHW]
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