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RE: [Lambengolmor] Finnish words from QL (was Re: Kalevala & Qenya)

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  • Pavel Iosad
    Hello, ... With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ hymn, lay, song . Together wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic nasals
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 16, 2003
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      Hello,

      Petri Tikka wrote (on the subject of Qenya words similar to Finnish):

      > > _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'

      And Christopher Gilson supplied the citation:

      > Kalanluinen kanteloinen 'a fish-bone harp' (40.224) "Dimin. of
      > _kantelo_ = _kantele_, 'a kind of harp with five strings'."
      > Kust' on koppa kanteletta? 'Of what is the body of the harp?'
      > (40.235) "Part. sing. of _kantele_ (stem _-lehe_) 'harp'."

      With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ 'hymn, lay, song'. Together
      wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic
      nasals yield -en- in Goidelic, hence *kentl- > *kétl- > *kédl > kédal
      (orthographic _cétal_)). Now these two words [*_kntl_ and _kantele_] do
      show a remarkable similarity, both in the form and content (surely the
      meanings are akin).

      I think it possible to suggest that here we see a reflection of
      Tolkien's early conception of the Elvish languages as a sort of
      'mediators' between the language of North-Western Europe. The words in
      Celtic and Finnish are, to the best of my knowledge, unrelated, but
      Tolkien supplies a story-internal explanation for the perceived
      similarity.

      Or is it just wishful thinking?

      Pavel
      --
      Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

      Nid byd, byd heb wybodaeth
      --Welsh saying
    • cgilson75
      ... [...] ... Specifically, Tolkien would have encountered this Celtic etymology in J. Morris Jones s _Welsh Grammar_ (pp. 17, 150), with mention also of a
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 9, 2003
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        --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel Iosad" <edricson@d...>
        wrote:

        > Petri Tikka wrote (on the subject of Qenya words similar to Finnish):
        >
        >> _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'
        >
        [...]
        >
        > With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ 'hymn, lay, song'. Together
        > wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic
        > nasals yield -en- in Goidelic, hence *kentl- > *kétl- > *kédl > kédal
        > (orthographic _cétal_)). Now these two words [*_kntl_ and _kantele_] do
        > show a remarkable similarity, both in the form and content (surely the
        > meanings are akin).

        Specifically, Tolkien would have encountered this Celtic etymology in
        J. Morris Jones's _Welsh Grammar_ (pp. 17, 150), with mention also of
        a variant Irish form _céol_; Breton _kentel_ 'lesson'; and
        interestingly enough Old Welsh _centh(i)liat_ 'singer', a gloss of
        Lat. _canorum_. The second (principal) mention is in connection with
        his explanatation of the development of original nasal + stop +
        resonant combinations like -ntl-, which brings out the connection of
        these words with the root *_kan-_ 'to sing': Lat. _canere_, W _canu_,
        etc.

        If my interpretation of the Naffarin verse is correct -- message 492
        -- then this particular sound-sense association was long-standing in
        Tolkien's private language, with Naff. _cangor (luttos)_ == *'song,
        poetry'. So the combined resemblance with Finn. _kantele_, _kantelo_
        'harp' would certainly have attracted Tolkien's attention.

        The earlier mention of these forms by Jones is in connection with the
        "inorganic _y_" that appears in certain Middle Welsh word-final
        consonant combinations, as in _pobyl_ for _pobl_ 'people'. In Old
        Welsh the spelling is _i_ (there is an Early Middle Welsh attestation
        of _cathil_ == _cathl_) and the sound can occur medially, as in
        _centhiliat_. This is remarkable because QL seems to have certain
        forms with an _i_ that have a similar "inorganic" origin and in a
        context phonetically similar to the pattern of _centh(i)liat_:
        _evandilyon_ 'gospel' (beside _evandl_ 'Christian missionary'); and
        _Earendilyon_ 'sailor' == *'son of Earendl' (beside _Earendl_ "the
        wanderer").

        Qenya forms ending in an _-e_ that alternates with _-i-_ when followed
        by an inflection at least sometimes reflect an earlier form in _-y-_
        (or consonantal _i_) followed by a reduced vowel (schwa), as stated
        explicitly for QL _ande_ 'long' and _ore_ 'seed, grain'. So to the
        extent that _kantele_ is structurally equivalent to *_kantely-_ +
        schwa, we can see its first _e_ as phonotactically comparable to the
        _i_ of _evandilyon_. Thus its relation to _kantl_ is comparable to
        the relation of _evandilyon_ to _evandl_. Since the inorganic vowel
        has no inherent quality, we can suppose that its actual realization is
        assimilated to the following vowel or semivowel, according to the
        latter's ultimate realization. The pair _kantl_, _kantele_ is
        comparable to _mantl_ 'glove' beside _mantele_ 'gauntlet'; and
        rejected _qintl_ or _-ele_ 'a lyre'.

        > I think it possible to suggest that here we see a reflection of
        > Tolkien's early conception of the Elvish languages as a sort of
        > 'mediators' between the language of North-Western Europe. The words in
        > Celtic and Finnish are, to the best of my knowledge, unrelated, but
        > Tolkien supplies a story-internal explanation for the perceived
        > similarity.
        >
        > Or is it just wishful thinking?

        As to whether W _cathl_ and Finn. _kantele_ are *actually* related, I
        can only note that Aimo Turunen in his _Kalevalan Sanat ja Niiden
        Taustat_ explains the latter as "joko baltt[ilainen], vrt. liett[uan]
        _kãnklis_, tai omaper. _kansi_, _kanta_-sanoihin liittyvä nimitys." I
        don't know what all of this says literally (perhaps Petri or our other
        Finnish-speaking members can illucidate further), but I think Turunen
        is suggesting a connection either with Lithuanian _kãnklis_ (I also
        don't know the meaning or etymology of this), or else with Finn.
        _kansi_ 'lid, cover; deck (of ship)' or _kanta_ 'base; heel (of shoe);
        head (of nail)'.

        But I do agree with Pavel that Tolkien must have imagined a common
        Elvish origin as the explanation for the resemblance between W _cathl_
        'song' and Finn. _kantele_ 'harp'. This is especially suggested by
        the fact that Q (_kantil_ 'a small harp' >>) _kantl_ 'a large harp' is
        closer in form to W _cathl_ (Early MW _cathil_) 'song', while Q
        _kantele_ 'harping' is equivalent in form to Finn. _kantele_ 'harp'.
        Apparently then, Tolkien intended to suggest that these various
        concepts and forms developed from a single original.

        And indeed, if we imagine the typical context in which all of these
        concepts have a role, i.e. the performance of a song or recital of a
        poem together with the playing of a harp, then each of these -- the
        harp, the song, and the playing -- is *instrumental* to the overall
        purpose of the presumably underlying verbal concept, which is to
        convey the sense of the song or poem to the listener. Perhaps the
        various Q. forms in both _-l_ and _-ele_ are to be seen as
        instrumentals derived ultimately from an enclitic application of the
        form _le_ 'with' (accompaniment).


        -- Christopher Gilson
      • Arden R. Smith
        ... You got the idea, Chris. Turunen s statement means: a name [or term] connected with either Baltic, cf. Lithuanian _kãnklis_, or original [i.e. native
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 9, 2003
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          Christopher Gilson wrote:

          >As to whether W _cathl_ and Finn. _kantele_ are *actually* related, I
          >can only note that Aimo Turunen in his _Kalevalan Sanat ja Niiden
          >Taustat_ explains the latter as "joko baltt[ilainen], vrt. liett[uan]
          >_kãnklis_, tai omaper. _kansi_, _kanta_-sanoihin liittyvä nimitys." I
          >don't know what all of this says literally (perhaps Petri or our other
          >Finnish-speaking members can illucidate further)

          You got the idea, Chris. Turunen's statement means: "a name [or
          term] connected with either Baltic, cf. Lithuanian _kãnklis_, or
          original [i.e. native Finnish] _kansi_, _kanta_-words."

          --
          *********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
          --Elvish proverb
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