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Finnish words from QL (was Re: Kalevala & Qenya)

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  • cgilson75
    Petri Tikka wrote the following, to which I would like to add some further notes on the occurrence of these forms in the Kalevala excerpts in C. N. E. Eliot s
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 24, 2003
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      Petri Tikka wrote the following, to which I would like to add some
      further notes on the occurrence of these forms in the Kalevala
      excerpts in C. N. E. Eliot's _Finnish Grammar_. Translations
      (Runo#.line#) and annotations in double quote marks are Eliot's:

      > [...] I think it would be interesting to find out all possible
      Finnish lexical influences on Qenya from the _Qenya Lexicon_. Here is
      what I could find (numbers refer pages of _Parma Eldalamberon_ 12):

      > AFA 'open, begin' (29) | stem _ava_ 'open'
      > _anta-_ 'gives' (31) | _anta-_ 'give'

      Ei Tuoni sanoja anna 'Tuoni does not give words' (16.323) "3rd.
      sing. pres. neg. of _antaa_ 'to give'."

      > _aurinka_ 'sunlit, sunny' (33) | _aurinko_ 'Sun'
      > _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'

      Kalanluinen kanteloinen 'a fish-bone harp' (40.224) "Dimin. of
      _kantelo_ = _kantele_, 'a kind of harp with five strings'."
      Kust' on koppa kanteletta? 'Of what is the body of the harp?'
      (40.235) "Part. sing. of _kantele_ (stem _-lehe_) 'harp'."

      > _kava-_ 'dig' (45) | _kaiva-_ 'dig'
      > _kólema_ 'hardship', _kuo_ 'pain' (47) | _kuolema_ 'death'

      Kuolo kullervo-urohon 'The death of the hero Kullervo' (36.344)
      Kuolema kova-osaista 'The death of the ill-fated one' (36.346)

      > _kulu_ 'gold' (49) | _kulta_ 'gold'
      > KUPU 'hump' > _kumpo_ 'pile' (49) | _kumpu_ 'hillock, hump'

      Tuonen kumpu kuumottavi 'The hill of Tuoni loomed' (16.158)

      > _kú_ 'Crescent Moon' | _kuu_ 'moon'

      Kuuna kullan valkeana 'While the golden moon shines'
      (16.360) "Essive of _kuu_ 'moon'. Genitive sing. of _kulta_ 'gold'."

      > Ó 'be, exist' (69) | stem _o_ 'be, exist'

      Oisi kutrit kärventynnä '(Thy) ringlets would be singed'
      (16.235) "=
      _olisi_, here used for _olisivat_."

      > _pelto_ 'hedge, hedged field' (73) | _pelto_ 'field'

      Pään on peltohon sysäsi 'Drove the hilt into the ground'
      (36.337)

      > _pínea_ 'small' (73] | _pieni_ 'small'
      > _qualme_ 'death', _qualma_ 'deadly' (76) | _kalma_ 'death, dead
      person'
      > _táma_ 'this' (87) | _tämä_ 'this'

      Vene täältä tuotanehe 'The boat will be brought'
      (16.175) "Adv. 'thence'; abl. of _tämä_ 'this';
      _täällä_, _täältä_
      are written with two _ä_'s when used adverbially."

      > _tie_ 'line, direction, route, road' (90) | _tie_ 'route, road'

      Akka tieltä kääntyköhön 'Let an old woman turn from the
      path'
      (16.274) "Ablative sing. _tie_ 'a way'."

      > _tereva_ 'piercing, acute, shrill, sharp' (91) | _terävä_
      'acute,
      sharp'

      Tempasi terävän miekan 'Grasped the sharp sword' (36.220)
      "Acc.
      sing. of adj. _terävä_ 'sharp', formed from _terä_ 'edge',
      with affix
      _va_."

      > _tulu-_ 'move, come' (95) | _tul-_ 'come'

      Tuoni toisi tullessansa 'Tuoni would have brought (thee) in his
      coming' (16.191) "Inessive of 2nd infin. of _tulla_ 'to come' with
      pron. affix of 3rd person."

      > _tunto_ 'notice, regard, perception' (95) | _tunto_ 'perception'

      Tuosta tunnen kielastajan! 'From this I know the liar!'
      (16.204) "1st sing. pres. of _tuntea_."

      > _vene_ 'small boat, vessel, dish' (100) | _vene_ 'small boat'

      Tuo venettä Tuonen tytti 'Bring a boat, daughter of Tuoni'
      (16.163) "Part. sing. of _vene_ 'a boat'; stem _venehe_ ... obj. of
      _tuo_."

      > _ya(n)_ 'and' (104) | _ja_ 'and'

      Itse lausui ja pakisi 'Herself talked and conversed' (16.174)

      I would also add a few items to Petri's list:

      HUHU- 'whoop', _húta- 'whoop' (41) | huutaa 'cry out, shout'
      Jo huhuta huikahutti 'Now shouting cried loudly' (16.160)

      KANGA- 'weave', _kangale_ 'a web' (45) | kangas 'cloth, fabric, web'
      Kultakangasta kutovi 'There she wove a golden fabric' (Kirby, 8.7)

      karka 'fang, tooth, tusk' (48) | kärki 'point'
      Kären käänti rintahansa 'Turned the point to his breast'
      (36.339) "Accusative sing. of stem _kärke_, nom. _kärki_, here
      'the
      point of the sword'."

      lutta-, lutu- 'flow, float' (57) | lautta 'raft, float' (n.)
      Lauttoa Manalan lapsi 'A ship, child of Manala' (16.164) "=
      _lauttaa_ ... part. sing. of _lautta_ 'ship'."

      SINI ('pale blue' ?), _sine_ 'pale (bluish) green' (83) |
      sininen 'blue'
      Sinisukka äijön lapsi 'The old man's child with blue stockings'
      (36.336) "'Blue-stockinged', a compd. of _sini_ 'blue', and
      _sukka_ 'stocking'."

      It should be noted that Eliot's _Finnish Grammar_ also includes an
      excerpt from the beginning of the Gospel of St. John, and a Finnish
      popular song, with the same sort of detailed annotations. The latter
      has:

      Lahella laiva pieni minua outtelee 'A little ship awaits me in the
      bay'; with the annotation on _pieni_: "Nominative sing. 'little'."

      And of course the grammar itself contains copious example sentences
      and forms, so many of the words in the list above occur there
      frequently. But I do think it is significant that most of the
      lexical material that Tolkien adapted more or less directly in both
      form and meaning from Finnish into the language of QL can be found in
      these excerpts from the Kalevala, which we know Tolkien encountered
      in 1911.

      Christopher Gilson
    • Pavel Iosad
      Hello, ... With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ hymn, lay, song . Together wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic nasals
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 16, 2003
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        Hello,

        Petri Tikka wrote (on the subject of Qenya words similar to Finnish):

        > > _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'

        And Christopher Gilson supplied the citation:

        > Kalanluinen kanteloinen 'a fish-bone harp' (40.224) "Dimin. of
        > _kantelo_ = _kantele_, 'a kind of harp with five strings'."
        > Kust' on koppa kanteletta? 'Of what is the body of the harp?'
        > (40.235) "Part. sing. of _kantele_ (stem _-lehe_) 'harp'."

        With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ 'hymn, lay, song'. Together
        wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic
        nasals yield -en- in Goidelic, hence *kentl- > *kétl- > *kédl > kédal
        (orthographic _cétal_)). Now these two words [*_kntl_ and _kantele_] do
        show a remarkable similarity, both in the form and content (surely the
        meanings are akin).

        I think it possible to suggest that here we see a reflection of
        Tolkien's early conception of the Elvish languages as a sort of
        'mediators' between the language of North-Western Europe. The words in
        Celtic and Finnish are, to the best of my knowledge, unrelated, but
        Tolkien supplies a story-internal explanation for the perceived
        similarity.

        Or is it just wishful thinking?

        Pavel
        --
        Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

        Nid byd, byd heb wybodaeth
        --Welsh saying
      • cgilson75
        ... [...] ... Specifically, Tolkien would have encountered this Celtic etymology in J. Morris Jones s _Welsh Grammar_ (pp. 17, 150), with mention also of a
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 9, 2003
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          --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel Iosad" <edricson@d...>
          wrote:

          > Petri Tikka wrote (on the subject of Qenya words similar to Finnish):
          >
          >> _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'
          >
          [...]
          >
          > With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ 'hymn, lay, song'. Together
          > wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic
          > nasals yield -en- in Goidelic, hence *kentl- > *kétl- > *kédl > kédal
          > (orthographic _cétal_)). Now these two words [*_kntl_ and _kantele_] do
          > show a remarkable similarity, both in the form and content (surely the
          > meanings are akin).

          Specifically, Tolkien would have encountered this Celtic etymology in
          J. Morris Jones's _Welsh Grammar_ (pp. 17, 150), with mention also of
          a variant Irish form _céol_; Breton _kentel_ 'lesson'; and
          interestingly enough Old Welsh _centh(i)liat_ 'singer', a gloss of
          Lat. _canorum_. The second (principal) mention is in connection with
          his explanatation of the development of original nasal + stop +
          resonant combinations like -ntl-, which brings out the connection of
          these words with the root *_kan-_ 'to sing': Lat. _canere_, W _canu_,
          etc.

          If my interpretation of the Naffarin verse is correct -- message 492
          -- then this particular sound-sense association was long-standing in
          Tolkien's private language, with Naff. _cangor (luttos)_ == *'song,
          poetry'. So the combined resemblance with Finn. _kantele_, _kantelo_
          'harp' would certainly have attracted Tolkien's attention.

          The earlier mention of these forms by Jones is in connection with the
          "inorganic _y_" that appears in certain Middle Welsh word-final
          consonant combinations, as in _pobyl_ for _pobl_ 'people'. In Old
          Welsh the spelling is _i_ (there is an Early Middle Welsh attestation
          of _cathil_ == _cathl_) and the sound can occur medially, as in
          _centhiliat_. This is remarkable because QL seems to have certain
          forms with an _i_ that have a similar "inorganic" origin and in a
          context phonetically similar to the pattern of _centh(i)liat_:
          _evandilyon_ 'gospel' (beside _evandl_ 'Christian missionary'); and
          _Earendilyon_ 'sailor' == *'son of Earendl' (beside _Earendl_ "the
          wanderer").

          Qenya forms ending in an _-e_ that alternates with _-i-_ when followed
          by an inflection at least sometimes reflect an earlier form in _-y-_
          (or consonantal _i_) followed by a reduced vowel (schwa), as stated
          explicitly for QL _ande_ 'long' and _ore_ 'seed, grain'. So to the
          extent that _kantele_ is structurally equivalent to *_kantely-_ +
          schwa, we can see its first _e_ as phonotactically comparable to the
          _i_ of _evandilyon_. Thus its relation to _kantl_ is comparable to
          the relation of _evandilyon_ to _evandl_. Since the inorganic vowel
          has no inherent quality, we can suppose that its actual realization is
          assimilated to the following vowel or semivowel, according to the
          latter's ultimate realization. The pair _kantl_, _kantele_ is
          comparable to _mantl_ 'glove' beside _mantele_ 'gauntlet'; and
          rejected _qintl_ or _-ele_ 'a lyre'.

          > I think it possible to suggest that here we see a reflection of
          > Tolkien's early conception of the Elvish languages as a sort of
          > 'mediators' between the language of North-Western Europe. The words in
          > Celtic and Finnish are, to the best of my knowledge, unrelated, but
          > Tolkien supplies a story-internal explanation for the perceived
          > similarity.
          >
          > Or is it just wishful thinking?

          As to whether W _cathl_ and Finn. _kantele_ are *actually* related, I
          can only note that Aimo Turunen in his _Kalevalan Sanat ja Niiden
          Taustat_ explains the latter as "joko baltt[ilainen], vrt. liett[uan]
          _kãnklis_, tai omaper. _kansi_, _kanta_-sanoihin liittyvä nimitys." I
          don't know what all of this says literally (perhaps Petri or our other
          Finnish-speaking members can illucidate further), but I think Turunen
          is suggesting a connection either with Lithuanian _kãnklis_ (I also
          don't know the meaning or etymology of this), or else with Finn.
          _kansi_ 'lid, cover; deck (of ship)' or _kanta_ 'base; heel (of shoe);
          head (of nail)'.

          But I do agree with Pavel that Tolkien must have imagined a common
          Elvish origin as the explanation for the resemblance between W _cathl_
          'song' and Finn. _kantele_ 'harp'. This is especially suggested by
          the fact that Q (_kantil_ 'a small harp' >>) _kantl_ 'a large harp' is
          closer in form to W _cathl_ (Early MW _cathil_) 'song', while Q
          _kantele_ 'harping' is equivalent in form to Finn. _kantele_ 'harp'.
          Apparently then, Tolkien intended to suggest that these various
          concepts and forms developed from a single original.

          And indeed, if we imagine the typical context in which all of these
          concepts have a role, i.e. the performance of a song or recital of a
          poem together with the playing of a harp, then each of these -- the
          harp, the song, and the playing -- is *instrumental* to the overall
          purpose of the presumably underlying verbal concept, which is to
          convey the sense of the song or poem to the listener. Perhaps the
          various Q. forms in both _-l_ and _-ele_ are to be seen as
          instrumentals derived ultimately from an enclitic application of the
          form _le_ 'with' (accompaniment).


          -- Christopher Gilson
        • Arden R. Smith
          ... You got the idea, Chris. Turunen s statement means: a name [or term] connected with either Baltic, cf. Lithuanian _kãnklis_, or original [i.e. native
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 9, 2003
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            Christopher Gilson wrote:

            >As to whether W _cathl_ and Finn. _kantele_ are *actually* related, I
            >can only note that Aimo Turunen in his _Kalevalan Sanat ja Niiden
            >Taustat_ explains the latter as "joko baltt[ilainen], vrt. liett[uan]
            >_kãnklis_, tai omaper. _kansi_, _kanta_-sanoihin liittyvä nimitys." I
            >don't know what all of this says literally (perhaps Petri or our other
            >Finnish-speaking members can illucidate further)

            You got the idea, Chris. Turunen's statement means: "a name [or
            term] connected with either Baltic, cf. Lithuanian _kãnklis_, or
            original [i.e. native Finnish] _kansi_, _kanta_-words."

            --
            *********************************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
            --Elvish proverb
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