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Finnish words from QL (was Re: Kalevala & Qenya)

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  • Petri Tikka
    ... Indeed it is. Relating to this issue, I think it would be interesting to find out all possible Finnish lexical influences on Qenya from the _Qenya
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 19, 2003
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      Christopher Gilson wrote:

      > This rather nicely illustrates just a few of the multiple layers of
      > inspiration that were integrated in Qenya already when it was
      > documented in QL. It is fascinating to peel back some of those
      > layers and possibly glimpse what affected Tolkien during the years
      > before this, when we know he was already continually inventing based
      > on the many languages he encountered.

      Indeed it is. Relating to this issue, I think it would be interesting
      to find out all possible Finnish lexical influences on Qenya
      from the _Qenya Lexicon_. Here is what I could find (numbers refer to
      pages of _Parma Eldalamberon_ 12):

      AFA 'open, begin' (29) | stem _ava_ 'open'
      _anta-_ 'gives' (31) | _anta-_ 'give'
      _aurinka_ 'sunlit, sunny' (33) | _aurinko_ 'Sun'
      _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'
      _kava-_ 'dig' (45) | _kaiva-_ 'dig'
      _kólema_ 'hardship', _kuo_ 'pain' (47) | _kuolema_ 'death'
      _kulu_ 'gold' (49) | _kulta_ 'gold'
      KUPU 'hump' > _kumpo_ 'pile' (49) | _kumpu_ 'hillock, hump'
      _kú_ 'Crescent Moon' | _kuu_ 'moon'
      Ó 'be, exist' (69) | stem _o_ 'be, exist'
      _pelto_ 'hedge, hedged field' (73) | _pelto_ 'field'
      _pínea_ 'small' (73] | _pieni_ 'small'
      _qualme_ 'death', _qualma_ 'deadly' (76) | _kalma_ 'death, dead person'
      _táma_ 'this' (87) | _tämä_ 'this'
      _tie_ 'line, direction, route, road' (90) | _tie_ 'route, road'
      _tereva_ 'piercing, acute, shrill, sharp' (91) | _terävä_ 'acute, sharp'
      _tulu-_ 'move, come' (95) | _tul-_ 'come'
      _tunto_ 'notice, regard, perception' (95) | _tunto_ 'perception'
      _vene_ 'small boat, vessel, dish' (100) | _vene_ 'small boat'
      _ya(n)_ 'and' (104) | _ja_ 'and'

      There are some more possible pairs that are rather doubtful, since
      the semantic closeness is thin, e.g. Qenya _kolme_ 'tip, point'
      (47) and Finnish _kolme_ 'three'. But these twenty examples can
      hardly be reduced to conicidences, since most of them are both
      phonologically and semantically nearly identical.

      Petri Samuel Tikka
    • cgilson75
      Petri Tikka wrote the following, to which I would like to add some further notes on the occurrence of these forms in the Kalevala excerpts in C. N. E. Eliot s
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 24, 2003
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        Petri Tikka wrote the following, to which I would like to add some
        further notes on the occurrence of these forms in the Kalevala
        excerpts in C. N. E. Eliot's _Finnish Grammar_. Translations
        (Runo#.line#) and annotations in double quote marks are Eliot's:

        > [...] I think it would be interesting to find out all possible
        Finnish lexical influences on Qenya from the _Qenya Lexicon_. Here is
        what I could find (numbers refer pages of _Parma Eldalamberon_ 12):

        > AFA 'open, begin' (29) | stem _ava_ 'open'
        > _anta-_ 'gives' (31) | _anta-_ 'give'

        Ei Tuoni sanoja anna 'Tuoni does not give words' (16.323) "3rd.
        sing. pres. neg. of _antaa_ 'to give'."

        > _aurinka_ 'sunlit, sunny' (33) | _aurinko_ 'Sun'
        > _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'

        Kalanluinen kanteloinen 'a fish-bone harp' (40.224) "Dimin. of
        _kantelo_ = _kantele_, 'a kind of harp with five strings'."
        Kust' on koppa kanteletta? 'Of what is the body of the harp?'
        (40.235) "Part. sing. of _kantele_ (stem _-lehe_) 'harp'."

        > _kava-_ 'dig' (45) | _kaiva-_ 'dig'
        > _kólema_ 'hardship', _kuo_ 'pain' (47) | _kuolema_ 'death'

        Kuolo kullervo-urohon 'The death of the hero Kullervo' (36.344)
        Kuolema kova-osaista 'The death of the ill-fated one' (36.346)

        > _kulu_ 'gold' (49) | _kulta_ 'gold'
        > KUPU 'hump' > _kumpo_ 'pile' (49) | _kumpu_ 'hillock, hump'

        Tuonen kumpu kuumottavi 'The hill of Tuoni loomed' (16.158)

        > _kú_ 'Crescent Moon' | _kuu_ 'moon'

        Kuuna kullan valkeana 'While the golden moon shines'
        (16.360) "Essive of _kuu_ 'moon'. Genitive sing. of _kulta_ 'gold'."

        > Ó 'be, exist' (69) | stem _o_ 'be, exist'

        Oisi kutrit kärventynnä '(Thy) ringlets would be singed'
        (16.235) "=
        _olisi_, here used for _olisivat_."

        > _pelto_ 'hedge, hedged field' (73) | _pelto_ 'field'

        Pään on peltohon sysäsi 'Drove the hilt into the ground'
        (36.337)

        > _pínea_ 'small' (73] | _pieni_ 'small'
        > _qualme_ 'death', _qualma_ 'deadly' (76) | _kalma_ 'death, dead
        person'
        > _táma_ 'this' (87) | _tämä_ 'this'

        Vene täältä tuotanehe 'The boat will be brought'
        (16.175) "Adv. 'thence'; abl. of _tämä_ 'this';
        _täällä_, _täältä_
        are written with two _ä_'s when used adverbially."

        > _tie_ 'line, direction, route, road' (90) | _tie_ 'route, road'

        Akka tieltä kääntyköhön 'Let an old woman turn from the
        path'
        (16.274) "Ablative sing. _tie_ 'a way'."

        > _tereva_ 'piercing, acute, shrill, sharp' (91) | _terävä_
        'acute,
        sharp'

        Tempasi terävän miekan 'Grasped the sharp sword' (36.220)
        "Acc.
        sing. of adj. _terävä_ 'sharp', formed from _terä_ 'edge',
        with affix
        _va_."

        > _tulu-_ 'move, come' (95) | _tul-_ 'come'

        Tuoni toisi tullessansa 'Tuoni would have brought (thee) in his
        coming' (16.191) "Inessive of 2nd infin. of _tulla_ 'to come' with
        pron. affix of 3rd person."

        > _tunto_ 'notice, regard, perception' (95) | _tunto_ 'perception'

        Tuosta tunnen kielastajan! 'From this I know the liar!'
        (16.204) "1st sing. pres. of _tuntea_."

        > _vene_ 'small boat, vessel, dish' (100) | _vene_ 'small boat'

        Tuo venettä Tuonen tytti 'Bring a boat, daughter of Tuoni'
        (16.163) "Part. sing. of _vene_ 'a boat'; stem _venehe_ ... obj. of
        _tuo_."

        > _ya(n)_ 'and' (104) | _ja_ 'and'

        Itse lausui ja pakisi 'Herself talked and conversed' (16.174)

        I would also add a few items to Petri's list:

        HUHU- 'whoop', _húta- 'whoop' (41) | huutaa 'cry out, shout'
        Jo huhuta huikahutti 'Now shouting cried loudly' (16.160)

        KANGA- 'weave', _kangale_ 'a web' (45) | kangas 'cloth, fabric, web'
        Kultakangasta kutovi 'There she wove a golden fabric' (Kirby, 8.7)

        karka 'fang, tooth, tusk' (48) | kärki 'point'
        Kären käänti rintahansa 'Turned the point to his breast'
        (36.339) "Accusative sing. of stem _kärke_, nom. _kärki_, here
        'the
        point of the sword'."

        lutta-, lutu- 'flow, float' (57) | lautta 'raft, float' (n.)
        Lauttoa Manalan lapsi 'A ship, child of Manala' (16.164) "=
        _lauttaa_ ... part. sing. of _lautta_ 'ship'."

        SINI ('pale blue' ?), _sine_ 'pale (bluish) green' (83) |
        sininen 'blue'
        Sinisukka äijön lapsi 'The old man's child with blue stockings'
        (36.336) "'Blue-stockinged', a compd. of _sini_ 'blue', and
        _sukka_ 'stocking'."

        It should be noted that Eliot's _Finnish Grammar_ also includes an
        excerpt from the beginning of the Gospel of St. John, and a Finnish
        popular song, with the same sort of detailed annotations. The latter
        has:

        Lahella laiva pieni minua outtelee 'A little ship awaits me in the
        bay'; with the annotation on _pieni_: "Nominative sing. 'little'."

        And of course the grammar itself contains copious example sentences
        and forms, so many of the words in the list above occur there
        frequently. But I do think it is significant that most of the
        lexical material that Tolkien adapted more or less directly in both
        form and meaning from Finnish into the language of QL can be found in
        these excerpts from the Kalevala, which we know Tolkien encountered
        in 1911.

        Christopher Gilson
      • Pavel Iosad
        Hello, ... With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ hymn, lay, song . Together wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic nasals
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 16, 2003
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          Hello,

          Petri Tikka wrote (on the subject of Qenya words similar to Finnish):

          > > _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'

          And Christopher Gilson supplied the citation:

          > Kalanluinen kanteloinen 'a fish-bone harp' (40.224) "Dimin. of
          > _kantelo_ = _kantele_, 'a kind of harp with five strings'."
          > Kust' on koppa kanteletta? 'Of what is the body of the harp?'
          > (40.235) "Part. sing. of _kantele_ (stem _-lehe_) 'harp'."

          With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ 'hymn, lay, song'. Together
          wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic
          nasals yield -en- in Goidelic, hence *kentl- > *kétl- > *kédl > kédal
          (orthographic _cétal_)). Now these two words [*_kntl_ and _kantele_] do
          show a remarkable similarity, both in the form and content (surely the
          meanings are akin).

          I think it possible to suggest that here we see a reflection of
          Tolkien's early conception of the Elvish languages as a sort of
          'mediators' between the language of North-Western Europe. The words in
          Celtic and Finnish are, to the best of my knowledge, unrelated, but
          Tolkien supplies a story-internal explanation for the perceived
          similarity.

          Or is it just wishful thinking?

          Pavel
          --
          Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

          Nid byd, byd heb wybodaeth
          --Welsh saying
        • cgilson75
          ... [...] ... Specifically, Tolkien would have encountered this Celtic etymology in J. Morris Jones s _Welsh Grammar_ (pp. 17, 150), with mention also of a
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 9, 2003
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            --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel Iosad" <edricson@d...>
            wrote:

            > Petri Tikka wrote (on the subject of Qenya words similar to Finnish):
            >
            >> _kantl_ 'a large harp', _kantele_ 'harping' (45) | kantele 'harp'
            >
            [...]
            >
            > With this, one has to compare Welsh _cathl_ 'hymn, lay, song'. Together
            > wth [Old] Irish _cétal_ it points to an earlier *_knt-l-_ (syllabic
            > nasals yield -en- in Goidelic, hence *kentl- > *kétl- > *kédl > kédal
            > (orthographic _cétal_)). Now these two words [*_kntl_ and _kantele_] do
            > show a remarkable similarity, both in the form and content (surely the
            > meanings are akin).

            Specifically, Tolkien would have encountered this Celtic etymology in
            J. Morris Jones's _Welsh Grammar_ (pp. 17, 150), with mention also of
            a variant Irish form _céol_; Breton _kentel_ 'lesson'; and
            interestingly enough Old Welsh _centh(i)liat_ 'singer', a gloss of
            Lat. _canorum_. The second (principal) mention is in connection with
            his explanatation of the development of original nasal + stop +
            resonant combinations like -ntl-, which brings out the connection of
            these words with the root *_kan-_ 'to sing': Lat. _canere_, W _canu_,
            etc.

            If my interpretation of the Naffarin verse is correct -- message 492
            -- then this particular sound-sense association was long-standing in
            Tolkien's private language, with Naff. _cangor (luttos)_ == *'song,
            poetry'. So the combined resemblance with Finn. _kantele_, _kantelo_
            'harp' would certainly have attracted Tolkien's attention.

            The earlier mention of these forms by Jones is in connection with the
            "inorganic _y_" that appears in certain Middle Welsh word-final
            consonant combinations, as in _pobyl_ for _pobl_ 'people'. In Old
            Welsh the spelling is _i_ (there is an Early Middle Welsh attestation
            of _cathil_ == _cathl_) and the sound can occur medially, as in
            _centhiliat_. This is remarkable because QL seems to have certain
            forms with an _i_ that have a similar "inorganic" origin and in a
            context phonetically similar to the pattern of _centh(i)liat_:
            _evandilyon_ 'gospel' (beside _evandl_ 'Christian missionary'); and
            _Earendilyon_ 'sailor' == *'son of Earendl' (beside _Earendl_ "the
            wanderer").

            Qenya forms ending in an _-e_ that alternates with _-i-_ when followed
            by an inflection at least sometimes reflect an earlier form in _-y-_
            (or consonantal _i_) followed by a reduced vowel (schwa), as stated
            explicitly for QL _ande_ 'long' and _ore_ 'seed, grain'. So to the
            extent that _kantele_ is structurally equivalent to *_kantely-_ +
            schwa, we can see its first _e_ as phonotactically comparable to the
            _i_ of _evandilyon_. Thus its relation to _kantl_ is comparable to
            the relation of _evandilyon_ to _evandl_. Since the inorganic vowel
            has no inherent quality, we can suppose that its actual realization is
            assimilated to the following vowel or semivowel, according to the
            latter's ultimate realization. The pair _kantl_, _kantele_ is
            comparable to _mantl_ 'glove' beside _mantele_ 'gauntlet'; and
            rejected _qintl_ or _-ele_ 'a lyre'.

            > I think it possible to suggest that here we see a reflection of
            > Tolkien's early conception of the Elvish languages as a sort of
            > 'mediators' between the language of North-Western Europe. The words in
            > Celtic and Finnish are, to the best of my knowledge, unrelated, but
            > Tolkien supplies a story-internal explanation for the perceived
            > similarity.
            >
            > Or is it just wishful thinking?

            As to whether W _cathl_ and Finn. _kantele_ are *actually* related, I
            can only note that Aimo Turunen in his _Kalevalan Sanat ja Niiden
            Taustat_ explains the latter as "joko baltt[ilainen], vrt. liett[uan]
            _kãnklis_, tai omaper. _kansi_, _kanta_-sanoihin liittyvä nimitys." I
            don't know what all of this says literally (perhaps Petri or our other
            Finnish-speaking members can illucidate further), but I think Turunen
            is suggesting a connection either with Lithuanian _kãnklis_ (I also
            don't know the meaning or etymology of this), or else with Finn.
            _kansi_ 'lid, cover; deck (of ship)' or _kanta_ 'base; heel (of shoe);
            head (of nail)'.

            But I do agree with Pavel that Tolkien must have imagined a common
            Elvish origin as the explanation for the resemblance between W _cathl_
            'song' and Finn. _kantele_ 'harp'. This is especially suggested by
            the fact that Q (_kantil_ 'a small harp' >>) _kantl_ 'a large harp' is
            closer in form to W _cathl_ (Early MW _cathil_) 'song', while Q
            _kantele_ 'harping' is equivalent in form to Finn. _kantele_ 'harp'.
            Apparently then, Tolkien intended to suggest that these various
            concepts and forms developed from a single original.

            And indeed, if we imagine the typical context in which all of these
            concepts have a role, i.e. the performance of a song or recital of a
            poem together with the playing of a harp, then each of these -- the
            harp, the song, and the playing -- is *instrumental* to the overall
            purpose of the presumably underlying verbal concept, which is to
            convey the sense of the song or poem to the listener. Perhaps the
            various Q. forms in both _-l_ and _-ele_ are to be seen as
            instrumentals derived ultimately from an enclitic application of the
            form _le_ 'with' (accompaniment).


            -- Christopher Gilson
          • Arden R. Smith
            ... You got the idea, Chris. Turunen s statement means: a name [or term] connected with either Baltic, cf. Lithuanian _kãnklis_, or original [i.e. native
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 9, 2003
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              Christopher Gilson wrote:

              >As to whether W _cathl_ and Finn. _kantele_ are *actually* related, I
              >can only note that Aimo Turunen in his _Kalevalan Sanat ja Niiden
              >Taustat_ explains the latter as "joko baltt[ilainen], vrt. liett[uan]
              >_kãnklis_, tai omaper. _kansi_, _kanta_-sanoihin liittyvä nimitys." I
              >don't know what all of this says literally (perhaps Petri or our other
              >Finnish-speaking members can illucidate further)

              You got the idea, Chris. Turunen's statement means: "a name [or
              term] connected with either Baltic, cf. Lithuanian _kãnklis_, or
              original [i.e. native Finnish] _kansi_, _kanta_-words."

              --
              *********************************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
              --Elvish proverb
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