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Re: [Lambengolmor] _Huorn_

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  • Edward J. Kloczko
    ... Not quite, not quite. ;-) ;-) ;-) Several years ago, I came to the same conclusion as you, cf. my book Le dictionnaire des langues des Hobbits, des Nains,
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 8 2:32 PM
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      Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

      > "Huorns" is an anglicized plural of a Sindarin sing. _Huorn_, the
      > latter element of which is, clearly enough, S _orn_ 'tree' (L:426).
      > The name is listed in the Sindarin glossary of _An Introduction to
      > Elvish_ with the translation 'Voiced-tree', the initial element _hu-_
      > interpreted in a separate entry as an adjective, 'speaking, voiced'
      > (ItE:81). Curiously, the word _Huorn_ has been largely ignored
      > since the publication of ITE, despite the enormous amount of new
      > linguistic material that has appeared since 1978.

      Not quite, not quite. ;-) ;-) ;-)

      Several years ago, I came to the same conclusion as you, cf. my book "Le
      dictionnaire des langues des Hobbits, des Nains, des Orques" :

      (My translation/adaptation):

      see Chapter 51. Huorns
      Entish is not only useful among Ents, it allows communication among
      Ents and Huorns. These ones are "shouting-trees" (from Sindarin hû-orn).
      [...] These strange "trees" received at first a Sindarin name Galbedir
      "talking trees" (see WR, p. 47). Then Tolkien tried instead some Quenya
      names : Lamorni and Ornómar, with a variant plural form Ornómi (see
      WR, p. 50), but all were rejected.

      Namárie,

      Edouard Kloczko

      P.S. To be published at the end of this year in an Italian translation (Tre
      editori), and in a German one next year (Baumann Verlag).

      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

      [My apologies for having overlooked your discussion of _huorn_ --
      I'm guilty of not speaking a single word of French, alas! Are there
      any plans for an English translation of this book?

      I'd also like to know if in your book you explained your reasoning
      for glossing the first element of _huorn_ as 'shouting' -- or is the
      passage cited above all that is said there on the topic? -- PHW]
    • Hans Georg Lundahl
      Patrick Wynne wrote: Here phonology provides the probable answer; for on analogy with the cognate pair Q _róma_ loud sound, trumpet-sound = N _rhû_ (in
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 10 4:18 AM
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        Patrick Wynne wrote:

        "Here phonology provides the probable
        answer; for on analogy with the cognate pair Q _róma_ 'loud sound,
        trumpet-sound' == N _rhû_ (in the Etym. s.v. ROM- 'loud noise, horn
        blast'), it appears that Q _óma_ would have had the Noldorin
        cognate *_û_. This would be identical to the (presumably frequent)
        negative prefix _ú-_ (as in _ú-chebin_ *'I have not kept',
        LR:1036), and so it was probably abandoned in favor of the
        more distinctive *_hû_."

        Q: would the development be something like:

        *ômâ > ôma (== Q) > *ûma > *ûmha > *ûmh > *ûv > *ûw > *û, phon. == ú?

        Has anyone (except Tolkien of course, whose linguistic material is still being
        published) tried to make a chart of Primitive Quendian to Noldorin/Sindarin
        soundchanges? Helge Fauskanger has made one for Quenya, I know.

        I was going to include attested examples for each sound change, but was
        interrupted by the fact that Quenya _Róme_ corresponds to Sindarin _Rhûn_.
        Would the correspondence be _Róme_ == _*Rhû_ + _*-n_?

        Hans Georg Lundahl

        * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

        [I will begin with a gentle reminder that page references should be
        provided for all forms cited -- I had to search for an unambiguous
        occurrence of Q _róme_ 'east' myself. This form appears as the
        first element in _Rómelonde_ 'East-haven', an earlier form of the
        name _Rómenna_ that appears in _The Notion Club Papers_ (IX:315).
        _Rómello_ '[to one] from the East' in Galadriel's Lament probably
        contains _rómen_ 'east' (V:384) instead, with *_Rómen-(l)lo_
        assimilating to _Rómello_.

        And Q _róme_ does _not_ correspond to S _rhûn_ 'east' (LR:1089).
        The _Etymologies_ s.v. RÔ- gives instead Q _róna_ 'east', N _rhûn_.
        The same entry gives N †_rhufen_ 'east' as the equivalent of Q
        _rómen_ 'east'.

        I don't know of any formal presentations of Primitive Quendian to
        Noldorin/Sindarin sound changes. Given David Salo's "Old Sindarin"
        and "Middle Sindarin" etymological forms in Didier Willis's Sindarin
        dictionary, presumably he has done some work along these lines,
        and perhaps this will form part of his book on Sindarin, when and
        if it is ever published.

        However, it is, I think, a major mistake from a scholarly standpoint
        to simply lump the Noldorin and Sindarin material together in for-
        mulating any such presentation of sound changes. We know there
        are differences between the Noldorin of the _Etymologies_ and the
        Sindarin of _The Lord of the Rings_, and to simply treat the two as
        interchangeable (after submitting Noldorin forms to a few minor
        cosmetic changes) greatly muddies the evidence. What needs to be
        done is a systematic analysis of the sound changes _of Noldorin
        as it appears in the Etymologies, and ONLY in the Etymologies_.
        This would then provide a valuable point of comparison for the
        phonetic developments seen in both the earlier and later material.

        -- Patrick H. Wynne]
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        I would like to extend Pat s comments with two of my own: First, a chart of the phonological developments from Primitive Eldarin to Noldorin or to Sindarin,
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 10 3:32 PM
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          I would like to extend Pat's comments with two of my own:

          First, a chart of the phonological developments from Primitive Eldarin
          to Noldorin or to Sindarin, while certainly useful, would yet be no
          substitute for the actual evidence of the languages themselves. Charts
          and other like distillations inevitably include hypothesis and gloss
          over particular peculiarities and exceptions. For a relatively limited
          corpus like those of Noldorin or Sindarin, this can be ameliorated by
          inclusion of exhaustive exemplars from the sources; but the result of
          doing so would basically just be a reorganization _Etymologies_ and the
          few other sources, into a form emphasizing groupings of like
          developments. My point being that, since the sources are not all that
          extensive, it is not too difficult, if one is not impatient, to find an
          example or two showing the path and result(s) of most any phonological
          development needed.

          Second, in addition to having what remains the best indices of
          Tolkien's languages in _The Lord of the Rings_, _An Introduction to
          Elvish_ features a still very useful tabulation of the chief
          phonological changes from P.E. to Quenya and to Sindarin (as they stood
          at the time of the publication of 2nd ed. of _The Lord of the Rings_),
          again as exemplified by the instances of these languages in _The Lord
          of the Rings_.

          Carl


          =============================================
          Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

          ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
          Ars longa, vita brevis.
          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
          "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
          a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
        • Edward J. Kloczko
          Patrick H. Wynne wrote ... No, all the US publishing houses I have approached have declined it because of the usual copyright problem. ... No I haven t gone
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 12 6:02 AM
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            Patrick H. Wynne wrote

            > [My apologies for having overlooked your discussion of _huorn_ --
            > I'm guilty of not speaking a single word of French, alas! Are there
            > any plans for an English translation of this book?

            No, all the US publishing houses I have approached have declined it
            because of the usual copyright problem.

            > I'd also like to know if in your book you explained your reasoning
            > for glossing the first element of _huorn_ as 'shouting' -- or is the
            > passage cited above all that is said there on the topic? -- PHW]


            No I haven't gone into much explanation about _hû-orn_ > _Huorn_
            in my book. But I should have translated in my post _hû-orn_ as
            'barking-tree' instead, since *KHUG- 'bark, bay'.

            Edouard Kloczko

            * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

            [Thanks for the further clarification! -- PHW]
          • David Kiltz
            Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the dictionnaire Tolkien , edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 20 3:51 AM
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              Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the "dictionnaire Tolkien", edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I haven't seen it mentioned here on the list (although it may have escaped me), I'd like to draw your attention to it.

              With its 670 pages and contributions from 60 people it might be of interest to those who read Tolkien and French. Indeed, if someone has read it, maybe she or he would be willing to provide a brief review of the content relevant to the scope of this list.

              Two links to the book:
              http://www.cnrseditions.fr/Litterature/6619-dictionnaire-tolkien-vincent-ferre.html
              http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-Tolkien-Vincent-Ferr%C3%A9/dp/2271075041


              -David
            • Damien
              David, Thanks for your comments on the _Dictionnaire_. I m sure Vincent Ferré would be glad to see this work discussed here. Being involved in the book, I
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 21 9:17 AM
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                David,

                Thanks for your comments on the _Dictionnaire_. I'm sure Vincent Ferré would be glad to see this work discussed here. Being involved in the book, I cannot really comment on it, but there are a few more pieces of information that might interest you, I think:

                - A full presentation of the book is available on Vincent Ferré's website:
                http://www.pourtolkien.fr/spip.php?article126

                - A large part of the _Dictionnaire_ can actually be read online:
                http://books.google.fr/books?id=W4Ewbus1yuoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=dictionnaire+tolkien&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=KjCZULO8JomohAeC-oDgCQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

                - A list of articles grouped by topics is also available online. You might wish to have a look at the "Langues" category:
                http://www.pourtolkien.fr/IMG/pdf/dictionnaire_-_notices_par_domaines.pdf

                - Two critics of interest can be found online (in French):
                > On _Acta Fabula_:
                http://www.fabula.org/revue/document7688.php

                > On Elbakin.net:
                http://www.elbakin.net/fantasy/roman/dictionnaire-tolkien-3859

                Best regards,
                Damien


                --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@...> wrote:
                >
                > Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the "dictionnaire Tolkien", edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I haven't seen it mentioned here on the list (although it may have escaped me), I'd like to draw your attention to it.
                >
                > With its 670 pages and contributions from 60 people it might be of interest to those who read Tolkien and French. Indeed, if someone has read it, maybe she or he would be willing to provide a brief review of the content relevant to the scope of this list.
                >
                > Two links to the book:
                > http://www.cnrseditions.fr/Litterature/6619-dictionnaire-tolkien-vincent-ferre.html
                > http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-Tolkien-Vincent-Ferr%C3%A9/dp/2271075041
                >
                >
                > -David
                >
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