Re: [Lambengolmor] _Huorn_
- Patrick H. Wynne wrote:
> "Huorns" is an anglicized plural of a Sindarin sing. _Huorn_, theNot quite, not quite. ;-) ;-) ;-)
> latter element of which is, clearly enough, S _orn_ 'tree' (L:426).
> The name is listed in the Sindarin glossary of _An Introduction to
> Elvish_ with the translation 'Voiced-tree', the initial element _hu-_
> interpreted in a separate entry as an adjective, 'speaking, voiced'
> (ItE:81). Curiously, the word _Huorn_ has been largely ignored
> since the publication of ITE, despite the enormous amount of new
> linguistic material that has appeared since 1978.
Several years ago, I came to the same conclusion as you, cf. my book "Le
dictionnaire des langues des Hobbits, des Nains, des Orques" :
see Chapter 51. Huorns
Entish is not only useful among Ents, it allows communication among
Ents and Huorns. These ones are "shouting-trees" (from Sindarin hû-orn).
[...] These strange "trees" received at first a Sindarin name Galbedir
"talking trees" (see WR, p. 47). Then Tolkien tried instead some Quenya
names : Lamorni and Ornómar, with a variant plural form Ornómi (see
WR, p. 50), but all were rejected.
P.S. To be published at the end of this year in an Italian translation (Tre
editori), and in a German one next year (Baumann Verlag).
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[My apologies for having overlooked your discussion of _huorn_ --
I'm guilty of not speaking a single word of French, alas! Are there
any plans for an English translation of this book?
I'd also like to know if in your book you explained your reasoning
for glossing the first element of _huorn_ as 'shouting' -- or is the
passage cited above all that is said there on the topic? -- PHW]
- Patrick Wynne wrote:
"Here phonology provides the probable
answer; for on analogy with the cognate pair Q _róma_ 'loud sound,
trumpet-sound' == N _rhû_ (in the Etym. s.v. ROM- 'loud noise, horn
blast'), it appears that Q _óma_ would have had the Noldorin
cognate *_û_. This would be identical to the (presumably frequent)
negative prefix _ú-_ (as in _ú-chebin_ *'I have not kept',
LR:1036), and so it was probably abandoned in favor of the
more distinctive *_hû_."
Q: would the development be something like:
*ômâ > ôma (== Q) > *ûma > *ûmha > *ûmh > *ûv > *ûw > *û, phon. == ú?
Has anyone (except Tolkien of course, whose linguistic material is still being
published) tried to make a chart of Primitive Quendian to Noldorin/Sindarin
soundchanges? Helge Fauskanger has made one for Quenya, I know.
I was going to include attested examples for each sound change, but was
interrupted by the fact that Quenya _Róme_ corresponds to Sindarin _Rhûn_.
Would the correspondence be _Róme_ == _*Rhû_ + _*-n_?
Hans Georg Lundahl
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[I will begin with a gentle reminder that page references should be
provided for all forms cited -- I had to search for an unambiguous
occurrence of Q _róme_ 'east' myself. This form appears as the
first element in _Rómelonde_ 'East-haven', an earlier form of the
name _Rómenna_ that appears in _The Notion Club Papers_ (IX:315).
_Rómello_ '[to one] from the East' in Galadriel's Lament probably
contains _rómen_ 'east' (V:384) instead, with *_Rómen-(l)lo_
assimilating to _Rómello_.
And Q _róme_ does _not_ correspond to S _rhûn_ 'east' (LR:1089).
The _Etymologies_ s.v. RÔ- gives instead Q _róna_ 'east', N _rhûn_.
The same entry gives N _rhufen_ 'east' as the equivalent of Q
I don't know of any formal presentations of Primitive Quendian to
Noldorin/Sindarin sound changes. Given David Salo's "Old Sindarin"
and "Middle Sindarin" etymological forms in Didier Willis's Sindarin
dictionary, presumably he has done some work along these lines,
and perhaps this will form part of his book on Sindarin, when and
if it is ever published.
However, it is, I think, a major mistake from a scholarly standpoint
to simply lump the Noldorin and Sindarin material together in for-
mulating any such presentation of sound changes. We know there
are differences between the Noldorin of the _Etymologies_ and the
Sindarin of _The Lord of the Rings_, and to simply treat the two as
interchangeable (after submitting Noldorin forms to a few minor
cosmetic changes) greatly muddies the evidence. What needs to be
done is a systematic analysis of the sound changes _of Noldorin
as it appears in the Etymologies, and ONLY in the Etymologies_.
This would then provide a valuable point of comparison for the
phonetic developments seen in both the earlier and later material.
-- Patrick H. Wynne]
- I would like to extend Pat's comments with two of my own:
First, a chart of the phonological developments from Primitive Eldarin
to Noldorin or to Sindarin, while certainly useful, would yet be no
substitute for the actual evidence of the languages themselves. Charts
and other like distillations inevitably include hypothesis and gloss
over particular peculiarities and exceptions. For a relatively limited
corpus like those of Noldorin or Sindarin, this can be ameliorated by
inclusion of exhaustive exemplars from the sources; but the result of
doing so would basically just be a reorganization _Etymologies_ and the
few other sources, into a form emphasizing groupings of like
developments. My point being that, since the sources are not all that
extensive, it is not too difficult, if one is not impatient, to find an
example or two showing the path and result(s) of most any phonological
Second, in addition to having what remains the best indices of
Tolkien's languages in _The Lord of the Rings_, _An Introduction to
Elvish_ features a still very useful tabulation of the chief
phonological changes from P.E. to Quenya and to Sindarin (as they stood
at the time of the publication of 2nd ed. of _The Lord of the Rings_),
again as exemplified by the instances of these languages in _The Lord
of the Rings_.
Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org
ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
Ars longa, vita brevis.
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
"I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
- Patrick H. Wynne wrote
> [My apologies for having overlooked your discussion of _huorn_ --No, all the US publishing houses I have approached have declined it
> I'm guilty of not speaking a single word of French, alas! Are there
> any plans for an English translation of this book?
because of the usual copyright problem.
> I'd also like to know if in your book you explained your reasoningNo I haven't gone into much explanation about _hû-orn_ > _Huorn_
> for glossing the first element of _huorn_ as 'shouting' -- or is the
> passage cited above all that is said there on the topic? -- PHW]
in my book. But I should have translated in my post _hû-orn_ as
'barking-tree' instead, since *KHUG- 'bark, bay'.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[Thanks for the further clarification! -- PHW]
- Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the "dictionnaire Tolkien", edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I haven't seen it mentioned here on the list (although it may have escaped me), I'd like to draw your attention to it.
With its 670 pages and contributions from 60 people it might be of interest to those who read Tolkien and French. Indeed, if someone has read it, maybe she or he would be willing to provide a brief review of the content relevant to the scope of this list.
Two links to the book:
Thanks for your comments on the _Dictionnaire_. I'm sure Vincent Ferré would be glad to see this work discussed here. Being involved in the book, I cannot really comment on it, but there are a few more pieces of information that might interest you, I think:
- A full presentation of the book is available on Vincent Ferré's website:
- A large part of the _Dictionnaire_ can actually be read online:
- A list of articles grouped by topics is also available online. You might wish to have a look at the "Langues" category:
- Two critics of interest can be found online (in French):
> On _Acta Fabula_:http://www.fabula.org/revue/document7688.php
> On Elbakin.net:http://www.elbakin.net/fantasy/roman/dictionnaire-tolkien-3859
--- In email@example.com, David Kiltz <derdron@...> wrote:
> Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the "dictionnaire Tolkien", edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I haven't seen it mentioned here on the list (although it may have escaped me), I'd like to draw your attention to it.
> With its 670 pages and contributions from 60 people it might be of interest to those who read Tolkien and French. Indeed, if someone has read it, maybe she or he would be willing to provide a brief review of the content relevant to the scope of this list.
> Two links to the book: