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_Huorn_

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  • Patrick H. Wynne
    In _The Lord of the Rings_, the Huorns are sentient, shadowy trees, who lurk in the less savory corners of Fangorn Forest and, thanks to an abiding hatred of
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 7, 2003
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      In _The Lord of the Rings_, the "Huorns" are sentient, shadowy trees,
      who lurk in the less savory corners of Fangorn Forest and, thanks to
      an abiding hatred of Orcs coupled with the ability to move, play a
      crucial role in the Rohirric campaign of the War of the Ring.
      According to Merry's account of the fall of Isengard, the Ents called
      these dangerous creatures "Huorns" because "they still have voices,
      and can speak with the Ents" (LR:551) -- to which Merry adds, "I think
      they are Ents that have become almost like trees, at least to look
      at."

      "Huorns" is an anglicized plural of a Sindarin sing. _Huorn_, the
      latter element of which is, clearly enough, S _orn_ 'tree' (L:426).
      The name is listed in the Sindarin glossary of _An Introduction to
      Elvish_ with the translation 'Voiced-tree', the initial element _hu-_
      interpreted in a separate entry as an adjective, 'speaking, voiced'
      (ItE:81). Curiously, the word _Huorn_ has been largely ignored
      since the publication of ITE, despite the enormous amount of new
      linguistic material that has appeared since 1978. _Huorn_ is not
      listed at all in Didier Willis's Sindarin dictionary, and the name has
      never been discussed on either Tolklang or Elfling. Bob Ireland's
      online Tolkien Dictionary glosses _Huorns_ as 'vigorous trees', with
      the initial element given as N _hûr_ 'vigour, fiery spirit'
      (V:364). But not only is this interpretation semantically unlikely
      -- since _Huorn_ is said to refer to the fact that "they still have
      voices" -- it also fails on phonological grounds, since N/S _r_
      does not disappear in intervocalic position in compounds, e.g.,
      N _dûr_ 'dark, somber' > _durion, duredhel_ 'a Dark-elf' (V:354).

      The only real mystery regarding _Huorn_ is the etymology of the
      initial element _hu-_. Given Merry's explanation of the name in
      LR:551 the general _meaning_ of this element is clear, and ItE's
      gloss 'speaking, voiced' must hit close to the mark. But where
      does this element come from, and what other words might it be
      related to?

      An early conceptual predecessor of the base underlying _hu-_
      in _Huorn_ probably appears in QL, which gives the root HUHU
      'whoop', which has the derivatives _hûta-_ 'whoop' (pa.t. _hue_)
      and _hulále_ 'babble, chatter, conversation' (the second element
      is from _lala-_ 'chatter, babble' < LALA). This root is equated in
      QL with _hoho_, apparently a form of HO (also OHO) 'shout,
      scream' (whence _holle_ 'a shout', _hô_ 'an owl', etc.) or OHO(2)
      'cry', the latter root being the source of _ôma_ 'voice' and _ohta_
      'shout'. All these early roots in QL share the sense of 'make a loud
      vocal sound'.

      If this early base HUHU survived into the later corpus, what form
      might it take? A comparison of those roots in QL that have clear
      equivalents in the Etymologies shows that roots with initial H- in
      QL often have equivalents in KH- in the Etymologies; for example,
      QL HATA 'hurl, fling' == Etym. KHAT- 'hurl'; QL HERE 'rule, have
      power' == Etym. KHER- 'rule, govern, possess'; etc. It can also be
      observed that some roots in QL containing intervocalic -H- have
      equivalent bases in the Etymologies with final -3-; for example,
      QL TAHA == Etym. TA3- 'high, lofty'; QL MAHA 'grasp' == Etym.
      MA3- 'hand'; QL TEHE 'pull?' == Etym. TE3- (both have as a
      derivative Q _tie_ 'line, direction, road').

      This suggests that QL HUHU would have taken the form *KHU3-,
      if it survived to the time of the Etymologies. *KHU3- does not
      appear in the Etymologies, but it is very close in form to a base
      that _does_ appear there: KHUG- 'bay, bark', referring to the loud
      vocal sounds of dogs, whence Q _huan_ 'hound'; Q _huo_, N _hû_
      'dog'; and N _Huan_, name of the great wolfhound of Valinor --
      to whom it was granted, perhaps significantly to the current
      discussion, the ability "to speak with words" three times before
      his death (S:173; the text from _The Silmarillion_ cited here is taken
      from the _Quenta Silmarillion_ of the late 1930s, contemporary
      with the Etymologies). A pair of related bases *KHU3-/KHUG-
      would parallel the 3/G variation also seen in such attested pairs
      in the Etymologies as MA3- 'hand' / MAG- 'use, handle' and 3AR-
      'have, hold' / GAR- 'hold, possess'.

      Such a base *KHU3- 'whoop' (or perhaps, more generally, 'cry out,
      shout') could have yielded a N form *_hû_ 'voice' (as OHO(2) 'cry'
      in QL yielded Q _ôma_ 'voice') -- for the phonological development,
      compare KU3- 'bow' > N _cû_ 'arch, crescent' (V:365). Thus,
      *_hû_ 'voice' + _orn_ 'tree' > _Huorn_ *'voice-tree, tree with a
      voice', with the same shortening of the vowel in the first element
      seen in _Tuor_ (< _tûghor_ < _tû-gor_ 'strength-vigor'; cf. N
      _tû_ 'muscle, sinew; vigour, physical strength', V:394 s.v. TUG-).
      N *_hû_ 'voice' would, of course, run the risk of being confused
      with homophonous N _hû_ 'dog'. This may have simply been an
      instance where Tolkien found homophony acceptable; on the
      other hand, the first appearance of the name _Huorn_ (see
      VIII:56) certainly post-dates the primary composition of the
      Etymologies (in 1937-38), and it may be that by the time the
      name _Huorn_ was devised, Tolkien had rejected N _hû_ 'dog'.

      This leaves us with a final question: why did Noldorin/Sindarin use
      *_hû, hu-_ for 'voice' and not a derivative of the base OM-, whence
      Q _óma_ 'voice' (V:379)? After all, _Huorn_ was preceded in earlier
      drafts of the text by the Quenya forms _Ornómar_ (VIII:50) 'Talking
      Trees' and _Ornómi_ 'trees with voices' (VIII:55), both of which
      contain Q _óma_ 'voice'. Here phonology provides the probable
      answer; for on analogy with the cognate pair Q _róma_ 'loud sound,
      trumpet-sound' == N _rhû_ (in the Etym. s.v. ROM- 'loud noise, horn
      blast'), it appears that Q _óma_ would have had the Noldorin
      cognate *_û_. This would be identical to the (presumably frequent)
      negative prefix _ú-_ (as in _ú-chebin_ *'I have not kept',
      LR:1036), and so it was probably abandoned in favor of the
      more distinctive *_hû_. The fact that the entry for OM- in the
      Etymologies gives only Qenya derivatives (_óma_ 'voice' and
      _óman_ 'vowel') further suggests that this base was not
      used in Noldorin.

      -- Patrick H. Wynne
    • Edward J. Kloczko
      ... Not quite, not quite. ;-) ;-) ;-) Several years ago, I came to the same conclusion as you, cf. my book Le dictionnaire des langues des Hobbits, des Nains,
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 8, 2003
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        Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

        > "Huorns" is an anglicized plural of a Sindarin sing. _Huorn_, the
        > latter element of which is, clearly enough, S _orn_ 'tree' (L:426).
        > The name is listed in the Sindarin glossary of _An Introduction to
        > Elvish_ with the translation 'Voiced-tree', the initial element _hu-_
        > interpreted in a separate entry as an adjective, 'speaking, voiced'
        > (ItE:81). Curiously, the word _Huorn_ has been largely ignored
        > since the publication of ITE, despite the enormous amount of new
        > linguistic material that has appeared since 1978.

        Not quite, not quite. ;-) ;-) ;-)

        Several years ago, I came to the same conclusion as you, cf. my book "Le
        dictionnaire des langues des Hobbits, des Nains, des Orques" :

        (My translation/adaptation):

        see Chapter 51. Huorns
        Entish is not only useful among Ents, it allows communication among
        Ents and Huorns. These ones are "shouting-trees" (from Sindarin hû-orn).
        [...] These strange "trees" received at first a Sindarin name Galbedir
        "talking trees" (see WR, p. 47). Then Tolkien tried instead some Quenya
        names : Lamorni and Ornómar, with a variant plural form Ornómi (see
        WR, p. 50), but all were rejected.

        Namárie,

        Edouard Kloczko

        P.S. To be published at the end of this year in an Italian translation (Tre
        editori), and in a German one next year (Baumann Verlag).

        * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

        [My apologies for having overlooked your discussion of _huorn_ --
        I'm guilty of not speaking a single word of French, alas! Are there
        any plans for an English translation of this book?

        I'd also like to know if in your book you explained your reasoning
        for glossing the first element of _huorn_ as 'shouting' -- or is the
        passage cited above all that is said there on the topic? -- PHW]
      • Hans Georg Lundahl
        Patrick Wynne wrote: Here phonology provides the probable answer; for on analogy with the cognate pair Q _róma_ loud sound, trumpet-sound = N _rhû_ (in
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 10, 2003
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          Patrick Wynne wrote:

          "Here phonology provides the probable
          answer; for on analogy with the cognate pair Q _róma_ 'loud sound,
          trumpet-sound' == N _rhû_ (in the Etym. s.v. ROM- 'loud noise, horn
          blast'), it appears that Q _óma_ would have had the Noldorin
          cognate *_û_. This would be identical to the (presumably frequent)
          negative prefix _ú-_ (as in _ú-chebin_ *'I have not kept',
          LR:1036), and so it was probably abandoned in favor of the
          more distinctive *_hû_."

          Q: would the development be something like:

          *ômâ > ôma (== Q) > *ûma > *ûmha > *ûmh > *ûv > *ûw > *û, phon. == ú?

          Has anyone (except Tolkien of course, whose linguistic material is still being
          published) tried to make a chart of Primitive Quendian to Noldorin/Sindarin
          soundchanges? Helge Fauskanger has made one for Quenya, I know.

          I was going to include attested examples for each sound change, but was
          interrupted by the fact that Quenya _Róme_ corresponds to Sindarin _Rhûn_.
          Would the correspondence be _Róme_ == _*Rhû_ + _*-n_?

          Hans Georg Lundahl

          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

          [I will begin with a gentle reminder that page references should be
          provided for all forms cited -- I had to search for an unambiguous
          occurrence of Q _róme_ 'east' myself. This form appears as the
          first element in _Rómelonde_ 'East-haven', an earlier form of the
          name _Rómenna_ that appears in _The Notion Club Papers_ (IX:315).
          _Rómello_ '[to one] from the East' in Galadriel's Lament probably
          contains _rómen_ 'east' (V:384) instead, with *_Rómen-(l)lo_
          assimilating to _Rómello_.

          And Q _róme_ does _not_ correspond to S _rhûn_ 'east' (LR:1089).
          The _Etymologies_ s.v. RÔ- gives instead Q _róna_ 'east', N _rhûn_.
          The same entry gives N †_rhufen_ 'east' as the equivalent of Q
          _rómen_ 'east'.

          I don't know of any formal presentations of Primitive Quendian to
          Noldorin/Sindarin sound changes. Given David Salo's "Old Sindarin"
          and "Middle Sindarin" etymological forms in Didier Willis's Sindarin
          dictionary, presumably he has done some work along these lines,
          and perhaps this will form part of his book on Sindarin, when and
          if it is ever published.

          However, it is, I think, a major mistake from a scholarly standpoint
          to simply lump the Noldorin and Sindarin material together in for-
          mulating any such presentation of sound changes. We know there
          are differences between the Noldorin of the _Etymologies_ and the
          Sindarin of _The Lord of the Rings_, and to simply treat the two as
          interchangeable (after submitting Noldorin forms to a few minor
          cosmetic changes) greatly muddies the evidence. What needs to be
          done is a systematic analysis of the sound changes _of Noldorin
          as it appears in the Etymologies, and ONLY in the Etymologies_.
          This would then provide a valuable point of comparison for the
          phonetic developments seen in both the earlier and later material.

          -- Patrick H. Wynne]
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          I would like to extend Pat s comments with two of my own: First, a chart of the phonological developments from Primitive Eldarin to Noldorin or to Sindarin,
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 10, 2003
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            I would like to extend Pat's comments with two of my own:

            First, a chart of the phonological developments from Primitive Eldarin
            to Noldorin or to Sindarin, while certainly useful, would yet be no
            substitute for the actual evidence of the languages themselves. Charts
            and other like distillations inevitably include hypothesis and gloss
            over particular peculiarities and exceptions. For a relatively limited
            corpus like those of Noldorin or Sindarin, this can be ameliorated by
            inclusion of exhaustive exemplars from the sources; but the result of
            doing so would basically just be a reorganization _Etymologies_ and the
            few other sources, into a form emphasizing groupings of like
            developments. My point being that, since the sources are not all that
            extensive, it is not too difficult, if one is not impatient, to find an
            example or two showing the path and result(s) of most any phonological
            development needed.

            Second, in addition to having what remains the best indices of
            Tolkien's languages in _The Lord of the Rings_, _An Introduction to
            Elvish_ features a still very useful tabulation of the chief
            phonological changes from P.E. to Quenya and to Sindarin (as they stood
            at the time of the publication of 2nd ed. of _The Lord of the Rings_),
            again as exemplified by the instances of these languages in _The Lord
            of the Rings_.

            Carl


            =============================================
            Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

            ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
            Ars longa, vita brevis.
            The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
            "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
            a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
          • Edward J. Kloczko
            Patrick H. Wynne wrote ... No, all the US publishing houses I have approached have declined it because of the usual copyright problem. ... No I haven t gone
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 12, 2003
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              Patrick H. Wynne wrote

              > [My apologies for having overlooked your discussion of _huorn_ --
              > I'm guilty of not speaking a single word of French, alas! Are there
              > any plans for an English translation of this book?

              No, all the US publishing houses I have approached have declined it
              because of the usual copyright problem.

              > I'd also like to know if in your book you explained your reasoning
              > for glossing the first element of _huorn_ as 'shouting' -- or is the
              > passage cited above all that is said there on the topic? -- PHW]


              No I haven't gone into much explanation about _hû-orn_ > _Huorn_
              in my book. But I should have translated in my post _hû-orn_ as
              'barking-tree' instead, since *KHUG- 'bark, bay'.

              Edouard Kloczko

              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

              [Thanks for the further clarification! -- PHW]
            • David Kiltz
              Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the dictionnaire Tolkien , edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 20, 2013
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                Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the "dictionnaire Tolkien", edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I haven't seen it mentioned here on the list (although it may have escaped me), I'd like to draw your attention to it.

                With its 670 pages and contributions from 60 people it might be of interest to those who read Tolkien and French. Indeed, if someone has read it, maybe she or he would be willing to provide a brief review of the content relevant to the scope of this list.

                Two links to the book:
                http://www.cnrseditions.fr/Litterature/6619-dictionnaire-tolkien-vincent-ferre.html
                http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-Tolkien-Vincent-Ferr%C3%A9/dp/2271075041


                -David
              • Damien
                David, Thanks for your comments on the _Dictionnaire_. I m sure Vincent Ferré would be glad to see this work discussed here. Being involved in the book, I
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 21, 2013
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                  David,

                  Thanks for your comments on the _Dictionnaire_. I'm sure Vincent Ferré would be glad to see this work discussed here. Being involved in the book, I cannot really comment on it, but there are a few more pieces of information that might interest you, I think:

                  - A full presentation of the book is available on Vincent Ferré's website:
                  http://www.pourtolkien.fr/spip.php?article126

                  - A large part of the _Dictionnaire_ can actually be read online:
                  http://books.google.fr/books?id=W4Ewbus1yuoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=dictionnaire+tolkien&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=KjCZULO8JomohAeC-oDgCQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

                  - A list of articles grouped by topics is also available online. You might wish to have a look at the "Langues" category:
                  http://www.pourtolkien.fr/IMG/pdf/dictionnaire_-_notices_par_domaines.pdf

                  - Two critics of interest can be found online (in French):
                  > On _Acta Fabula_:
                  http://www.fabula.org/revue/document7688.php

                  > On Elbakin.net:
                  http://www.elbakin.net/fantasy/roman/dictionnaire-tolkien-3859

                  Best regards,
                  Damien


                  --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Last year a book on literary and linguistic matters Tolkien came out in France (in French), the "dictionnaire Tolkien", edited by Vincent Ferré. Since I haven't seen it mentioned here on the list (although it may have escaped me), I'd like to draw your attention to it.
                  >
                  > With its 670 pages and contributions from 60 people it might be of interest to those who read Tolkien and French. Indeed, if someone has read it, maybe she or he would be willing to provide a brief review of the content relevant to the scope of this list.
                  >
                  > Two links to the book:
                  > http://www.cnrseditions.fr/Litterature/6619-dictionnaire-tolkien-vincent-ferre.html
                  > http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-Tolkien-Vincent-Ferr%C3%A9/dp/2271075041
                  >
                  >
                  > -David
                  >
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