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"manu" departed spirit

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  • laurifindil
    In Etymologies we read : MAN- holy spirit (one who has not been born or who has passed through death). Q _manu_ departed spirit; N _mân_. Cf. Q _Manwe_ (also
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 18 5:09 AM
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      In Etymologies we read :

      "MAN- holy spirit (one who has not been born or who has passed through
      death). Q _manu_ departed spirit; N _mân_. Cf. Q _Manwe_ (also borrowed
      and used in N [see WEG])/"

      I guess that the root/stem MAN- "holy spirit" is defined by the
      sentence "one who has not [?yet] been born or who has [?already]
      passed through death".

      But _manu/mân_ as "departed spirit" eludes me.

      Would it mean "a spirit already passed through death"? That is by
      semantical evolution only a part of the original meaning of the stem
      was preserved in _manu/mân_. Still "departed spirit" is a strange
      expression... for me.

      Any thought by someone with English as mother tongue would be welcome.
      ;-)

      Edouard Kloczko

      [Like you, I assume that the gloss 'departed spirit' == 'a spirit that
      has already passed through death'. The root MANA in QL
      apparently had a similar connotation, with derivatives that
      included _manimo_ 'Holy soul' and _manimuine_ 'Purgatory' --
      these last two forms are more expansively glossed in PME
      as 'disincarnate spirit' and 'abiding place of disincarnate
      spirit(s)', respectively (PE12:58).

      We might suppose that the reason why Q _manu_ 'departed
      spirit' seems to refer only to disincarnate spirits _after death_
      (not _before birth_) is that this was the primary experience that
      Elves (and Men) had with the concept of disincarnate spirits,
      i.e. through the death of people they had known and loved,
      and in the case of Elves who might again return in incarnated
      form. Disincarnate spirits who had never been born would
      probably seem a far more nebulous concept to Elves -- one
      would not know such spirits as one had known the spirits of
      lost loved ones -- thus a concept more rarely used and hence
      not included in the general sense of _manu_.

      -- PHW]
    • Hans Georg Lundahl
      laurifindil wrote, re Q _manu_ departed spirit ... Departed spirit: a spirit that has departed from its body (intransitive verbs of movement
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 18 8:12 AM
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        laurifindil <ejk@...> wrote, re Q _manu_ 'departed spirit'
        in the Etymologies:

        > ... Still "departed spirit" is a strange
        > expression... for me.
        >
        > Any thought by someone with English as mother tongue would be
        > welcome. ;-)

        Departed spirit: a spirit that has departed from its body (intransitive
        verbs of movement have active past participles formed as the passive
        past participle of transitive verbs).

        -- Hans

        [I should have added, in my original comments to Edouard's post,
        that in English one meaning of the verb "depart" is 'to die', and
        "departed" is often used to mean 'dead' or 'dead person'. Hence,
        Tolkien's 'departed spirit' == 'spirited of one departed', i.e. 'spirit
        who has passed through death'. -- PHW]]
      • Gildor Inglorion
        ... I must mention also the latin word Manes that refers to the spirits of the dead... It seems that Tolkien had this word in mind... [Pat has asked me to
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 18 11:17 AM
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          > Departed spirit: a spirit that has departed from its body (intransitive
          > verbs of movement have active past participles formed as the passive
          > past participle of transitive verbs).

          I must mention also the latin word 'Manes' that refers to the spirits of
          the dead... It seems that Tolkien had this word in mind...



          [Pat has asked me to note that in his previous post of today in this thread,
          the words 'spirited of one departed' should, of course, read 'spirit of one
          departed'. CFH]

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        • Edward J. Kloczko
          ... My question was addressed to someone speaking English as a mother-tongue not about the meaning of departed . To my knowledge the _usual_ English
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 18 4:39 PM
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            I wrote:

            >> ... Still "departed spirit" is a strange expression... for me.
            >>
            >> Any thought by someone with English as mother tongue would be welcome. ;-)

            My question was addressed to someone speaking English as a mother-tongue not
            about the meaning of "departed".

            To my knowledge the _usual_ English expression is "a departed soul", not "a
            departed spirit", isn't it? Is "departed spirit" an unusual T. construction? A new
            coinage, or not at all. Plain good English.

            I do know English... ;-) but it is difficult to "feel" it, when it is not your mother-
            tongue, if an expression is _usual_ or sounds "new" or "weird".

            Edouard Kloczko

            ["Departed spirit" sounds no stranger to my ear than does "departed soul". In fact,
            "departed soul" is the more unusual-sounding. CFH]
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