"manu" departed spirit
- In Etymologies we read :
"MAN- holy spirit (one who has not been born or who has passed through
death). Q _manu_ departed spirit; N _mân_. Cf. Q _Manwe_ (also borrowed
and used in N [see WEG])/"
I guess that the root/stem MAN- "holy spirit" is defined by the
sentence "one who has not [?yet] been born or who has [?already]
passed through death".
But _manu/mân_ as "departed spirit" eludes me.
Would it mean "a spirit already passed through death"? That is by
semantical evolution only a part of the original meaning of the stem
was preserved in _manu/mân_. Still "departed spirit" is a strange
expression... for me.
Any thought by someone with English as mother tongue would be welcome.
[Like you, I assume that the gloss 'departed spirit' == 'a spirit that
has already passed through death'. The root MANA in QL
apparently had a similar connotation, with derivatives that
included _manimo_ 'Holy soul' and _manimuine_ 'Purgatory' --
these last two forms are more expansively glossed in PME
as 'disincarnate spirit' and 'abiding place of disincarnate
spirit(s)', respectively (PE12:58).
We might suppose that the reason why Q _manu_ 'departed
spirit' seems to refer only to disincarnate spirits _after death_
(not _before birth_) is that this was the primary experience that
Elves (and Men) had with the concept of disincarnate spirits,
i.e. through the death of people they had known and loved,
and in the case of Elves who might again return in incarnated
form. Disincarnate spirits who had never been born would
probably seem a far more nebulous concept to Elves -- one
would not know such spirits as one had known the spirits of
lost loved ones -- thus a concept more rarely used and hence
not included in the general sense of _manu_.
- laurifindil <ejk@...> wrote, re Q _manu_ 'departed spirit'
in the Etymologies:
> ... Still "departed spirit" is a strangeDeparted spirit: a spirit that has departed from its body (intransitive
> expression... for me.
> Any thought by someone with English as mother tongue would be
> welcome. ;-)
verbs of movement have active past participles formed as the passive
past participle of transitive verbs).
[I should have added, in my original comments to Edouard's post,
that in English one meaning of the verb "depart" is 'to die', and
"departed" is often used to mean 'dead' or 'dead person'. Hence,
Tolkien's 'departed spirit' == 'spirited of one departed', i.e. 'spirit
who has passed through death'. -- PHW]]
> Departed spirit: a spirit that has departed from its body (intransitiveI must mention also the latin word 'Manes' that refers to the spirits of
> verbs of movement have active past participles formed as the passive
> past participle of transitive verbs).
the dead... It seems that Tolkien had this word in mind...
[Pat has asked me to note that in his previous post of today in this thread,
the words 'spirited of one departed' should, of course, read 'spirit of one
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- I wrote:
>> ... Still "departed spirit" is a strange expression... for me.My question was addressed to someone speaking English as a mother-tongue not
>> Any thought by someone with English as mother tongue would be welcome. ;-)
about the meaning of "departed".
To my knowledge the _usual_ English expression is "a departed soul", not "a
departed spirit", isn't it? Is "departed spirit" an unusual T. construction? A new
coinage, or not at all. Plain good English.
I do know English... ;-) but it is difficult to "feel" it, when it is not your mother-
tongue, if an expression is _usual_ or sounds "new" or "weird".
["Departed spirit" sounds no stranger to my ear than does "departed soul". In fact,
"departed soul" is the more unusual-sounding. CFH]