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Re: [Lambengolmor] Quenya accusative pronouns

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  • Beregond. Anders Stenström
    While Patrick Wynne presents reasons for his description of _-ni_ as accusative in form , distinct from the nominative ending . . . _-nye_ and from the
    Message 1 of 17 , May 2, 2003
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      While Patrick Wynne presents reasons for his description of _-ni_
      as "accusative in form", distinct from the "nominative ending . . .
      _-nye_" and from the subject prefix _ni-_ (the corresponding suffix
      form of this being rather _-ne_).

      But how is _-le_ distinct in form (as opposed to usage) from the
      subject prefix _le-_ (found in the discarded _le.ana_ in line 1 of
      Tolkien's unfinished Quenya version of the litany of Loreto,
      VT 44:12-13)?

      Meneg suilaid,

      Beregond

      [As previously discussed, while acc. _-ni_ in _�ni_ appears
      identical in form to nom. _ni-_ in _nimaruva, nilendie_, the
      acc. form must actually derive from *_-n�_, while the nom.
      form must derive from *_ni_ (> _-ne_ in _tye-mel�ne_ 'I
      love thee'). Note also that as a nom. prefix we see _ni-_
      with a short _i_, not **_n�maruva, n�lendie_.

      Similarly, while _-le_ in _�le_ appears identical in form to
      _le-_ in _le-ana_, it would be reasonable to suppose (after
      the model of nom. *_ni_, acc. *_n�_) that in the earlier
      language there was a formal distinction between nom.
      *_le_ and acc. *_l�_. And just as we see nom. _ni-_, not
      **_n�-_, in _nimaruva, nilendie_, so we see nom. _le-_ in
      _le-ana_, not **_l�-_.

      Also note Q _m�ne_ 'on-us' (IX:310), which might be
      analyzed as acc. *_m�_ 'us' + enclitic postposition *_-ne_
      'on' (perhaps cognate with ON, EN _ne-_ *'in', as in ON
      _nestak-_ 'insert, stick in', EN _nestegi_ < STAK- 'split,
      insert', V:388).

      -- Patrick H. Wynne]
    • Beregond. Anders Stenström
      ... Would not _é_ in **_lé-ana_ have been reduced, as is usual in hiatus position? That is, can we tell from this single example whether subject and object
      Message 2 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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        I wrote and Patrick Wynne answered:

        > But how is _-le_ distinct in form (as opposed to usage) from the
        > subject prefix _le-_ (found in the discarded _le.ana_ . . .)
        >
        > [. . . we see nom. _le-_ in _le-ana_, not **_lé-_. . . .]

        Would not _é_ in **_lé-ana_ have been reduced, as is usual
        in hiatus position? That is, can we tell from this single example
        whether subject and object form were not identically _lé_, both
        taking the form _le_ in the contexts under discussion?

        I do find Patrick's interpretation more attractive, though.

        Meneg suilaid,

        Beregond

        [I would say that yes, **_lé-ana_ would have been an allowable
        form at the time the pronoun chart was written, given the
        occurrance of _úa_ and _úalye_ in Átaremma I and IIa, which
        are contemporary with the chart. And while assuming con-
        sistency in pronominal forms taken from different compositional
        periods is an iffy proposition at best, we might suppose that
        the nom. prefix _ni-_ with short vowel in _nimaruva, nilendie_
        also argues that nom. prefix _le-_ in _le-ana_ was inherently
        short, rather than being long but shortened in hiatus position.

        It is _not_, however, an iffy proposition to suppose consistency
        in pronominal forms appearing in the same text. I have shown
        that _-ni_ in _óni_ must derive from *_-nî_, the lengthened
        vowel strongly suggesting that it is accusative; I have shown
        that _-me_ in _óme_ is identical in form with accusative _me_
        'us' in the Átaremma and elsewhere, and that _te_ in _óte_
        appears to be identical to accusative _te_ 'them' in _a laita
        te_ 'praise them'. It is not unreasonable then to suppose that
        the other forms in this same chart, _óle_ et al., are based on
        accusative forms as well, with of course the exception of
        _onye, olye_, in which the endings _-nye, -lye_ are attested
        as nominative.

        -- Patrick H. Wynne]
      • David Kiltz
        ... What, then, is your definition of object in this context? ... In German? What about e.g. nom. _der Ochse_, acc. _den Ochsen_? David Kiltz
        Message 3 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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          On Samstag, April 26, 2003, at 12:06 Uhr, Hans wrote:

          > Indeed, attaching a pronoun to a preposition clearly marks it as an
          > object!

          What, then, is your definition of "object" in this context?

          > In languages like German, English, Italian,... the difference
          > between acc. and nom. is no longer expressed in nouns

          In German? What about e.g. nom. _der Ochse_, acc. _den Ochsen_?

          David Kiltz
        • David Kiltz
          ... I don t understand the connection you make between green and with thee . The first is an adjective, with thee is not. Indeed with thee has no
          Message 4 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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            On Mittwoch, April 16, 2003, at 10:20 Uhr, Carl Hostetter wrote:

            > Moreover, it seems to me that asserting that _aselye_ 'with thee' is
            > the subject is equivalent to saying that, in the sentence: "The grass is
            > green", "green" is the subject (and, therefore, a noun).

            I don't understand the connection you make between "green" and "with
            thee". The first is an adjective, "with thee" is not. Indeed "with
            thee" has no characteristics of an adjective but "thee" clearly is a
            noun, just as in a phrase "with the dog" "dog" is a noun. I'd be
            curious to know what you mean.

            [My point is that the (predicate) prepositional phrase "with thee" is no
            more the "subject" of the sentence than is the (predicate) adjective
            "green". Yet you have called "with thee" the subject of the sentence.
            Further, to what follows, while it is true that the copula has no
            grammatical object in these sentences -- so far as I know that was
            never in question, and certainly I never claimed that "with thee" is
            the object of the copula -- nonetheless the preposition "with" does
            have an object, namely "thee". CFH]

            A functional object, as I understand it, is the second participant of a
            verbal sentence. Cf. "I (subj.) see you (obj.)". In a nominal sentence
            there is no object (functionally or logically). "The lord is with thee"
            is functionally the same as "Thou art with the Lord" or "The Lord and
            thou art together" (with semantic nuances, but that's irrelevant at
            this point). The fact that in most I.-E. languages nouns, taking
            prepositions, take the same *form* as objects of a verbal sentence do
            does not, in any way, make them functionally the same. While I agree
            that _elye_ may well be an oblique case (although the form isn't
            clear), there is no question that it isn't an object. "To be" has a
            valence of 1, it can never take an object. "With thee" is part of the
            nominal phrase, it is an adnominal addition, not one to the verb. In
            German the sentence reads "der Herr ist mit Dir". _Dir_ is the form of
            the indirect object (dative) of _Du_ ("You"). Just as _Thee_. To call
            _mit Dir_ an indirect object would, with all respect, in my eyes, be
            absurd. Imagine a sentence: "Ich warte dich ihm" vs "Ich warte mit dir
            auf ihn". In the latter sentence ("I wait for him with you") _auf ihn_
            is indeed a prepositional object, however, _mit dir_ is *not* a
            prepositional indirect object.

            Maybe, it boils all down to a question of terminology. Just as in a
            sentence "the window was hit by a bullet" "bullet" is the logical
            subject, so is "with the" in the sentence in question. Again, the
            *formal* identity of e.g. in German the indirect object (dative) with a
            (pro)noun after the preposition "mit" has nothing to do with their
            respective functions in these two, very different, cases.

            [Yes, indeed, it has everything to do with terminology, as I thought
            we'd already established. When you used "subject" as a shorthand for
            the "logical subject" of the sentence, others (quite naturally, I think)
            took it to mean the _grammatical_ subject of the sentence. This was
            not really a matter of form, but of grammatical vs. (your view of)
            logical function. But I still haven't been persuaded that the predicate
            prepositional phrases in the sentences under discussion are in any
            way a subject, logical or otherwise. CFH]
          • David Kiltz
            ... The distinction logical vs grammatical subject is, IMHO, in general terms unfortunate. The definition of grammatical subject is apparently based solely
            Message 5 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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              On Mittwoch, Mai 14, 2003, at 06:03 Uhr, Carl Hostetter wrote:

              > When you used "subject" as a shorthand for the "logical subject" of
              > the sentence, others (quite naturally, I think) took it to mean the
              > _grammatical_ subject of the sentence. This was not really a matter
              > of form, but of grammatical vs. (your view of) logical function. But I
              > still haven't been persuaded that the predicate prepositional phrases
              > in the sentences under discussion are in any way a subject, logical or
              > otherwise. CFH]

              The distinction logical vs grammatical subject is, IMHO, in general
              terms unfortunate.

              The definition of "grammatical subject" is apparently based solely on
              formal grounds.

              [Not at all. I think of the grammatical subject of a sentence as that
              part of the sentence filling the role or function of the subject,
              regardless of its form. You are quite right to have noted that form and
              function must be kept separate (no matter how much they might coincide
              at times); but that is not the failure of distinction here. As I see it,
              you are taking a predicate prepositional phrase == prep. + grammatical obj.
              of prep., and calling this the "subject" of the sentence, by which you mean
              "logical subject". I have yet to be convinced that this has any validity,
              but even if it does, it was your use of "subject" for (whatever you mean by)
              "logical subject" that caused the confusion. CFH]

              I think this view doesn't do the language justice. If, syntactically,
              the subject is the first participant of a verb (or the only one of the
              copula) then it is most prominently encoded as nominative but it
              doesn't have to be. As you accepted, "to be" doesn't take an object.
              What then is "thee", the object of a preposition ? I never heard
              anybody call it that.

              [Oh, but I have, many, many times, from many different sources,
              spoken and written. I daresay anyone educated in grammar in an
              English-speaking school will have learned to call such the "object of
              the preposition". CFH]

              The term object is ambiguous here since it is applied to two
              syntactically (not formally) completely different phenomena. What I'm
              aiming it, is establishing a relation between the syntactical terms subject
              and object vis-à-vis case endings. Unlike Ivan Derzhanski I don't think
              this obscures anything because there is no one-to-one relation between
              those categories. I still don't see how it could make sense to say a
              preposition takes the accusative and dative, hence we give it the same
              name as a syntactical relation to a verb.

              [And yet we do, and for very long now have. CFH]

              Why bother with syntax anyway, if we don't make a distinction? I'm not
              trying to obscure an equation that doesn't exist but to illustrate a
              difference.

              Out of curiosity: How would you define the function of subject and
              object in a sentence?

              [I don't think I would attempt to; I'm not that kind of linguist. But I
              knows 'em when I sees 'em. CFH]

              David Kiltz
            • Frederick Hoyt
              [This discussion is drifting far afield from Tolkien s languages -- whatever the linguistic merits of the discussion, we can be pretty certain that Tolkien
              Message 6 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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                [This discussion is drifting far afield from Tolkien's languages -- whatever
                the linguistic merits of the discussion, we can be pretty certain that Tolkien
                never concerned himself with "pivots" or "binding theory prominence" while
                practising his language-making Art. If anyone wishes to continue this
                discussion, it will have to be brought 'round to Tolkien again. CFH]

                Please pardon me if I crash this thread.

                Yehuda Falk of the Hebrew University has written a very nice (short,
                clear, to the point) paper on the distinction between different notions
                of "subject." He summarizes varies threads of research going back to at
                least the early 1970's, and motivates a basic distinction between the
                Pivot (grammatical subject, discourse-functional subject), and Logical
                Subject (most 'salient' thematic participant). The distinction is
                backed up by a battery of criteria drawing on a wide range of
                languages. It's available online as a PDF:

                http://cslipublications.stanford.edu/LFG/5/lfg00falk.pdf

                Distinguishing between the Pivot and Logical Subject might go a long
                way toward clearing up some of the terminological issues addressed in
                the preceding posts. Whether or not one chooses to adopt the
                terminology, the evidence clearly supports the distinction between a
                grammatical subject and a semantic subject.

                Thanks,

                Fred Hoyt

                Frederick M. Hoyt
                Linguistics Department
                University of Texas at Austin
                fmhoyt@...
                LIN 312 - The Linguistics of Middle-earth website:
                http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~fmhoyt/LIN312Homepage/312Main.html
              • Lukas Novak
                ... Please excuse me to intrude on your learned discourse, but it seems to me that the differences are more than slight . It seems to me that arguing that
                Message 7 of 17 , May 15, 2003
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                  David Kiltz wrote:

                  > A functional object, as I understand it, is the second participant of a
                  > verbal sentence. Cf. "I (subj.) see you (obj.)". In a nominal sentence
                  > there is no object (functionally or logically). "The lord is with thee"
                  > is functionally the same as "Thou art with the Lord" or "The Lord and
                  > thou art together" (with semantic nuances, but that's irrelevant at
                  > this point).

                  Please excuse me to intrude on your learned discourse, but it seems
                  to me that the differences are more than "slight". It seems to me that
                  arguing that these three sentences are "logically the same" is to make
                  the same mistake as many logicians do when they claim that since a
                  proposition A1 is equivalent to A2, they are one and the same (and
                  according to the logician's preferences, either A1 is claimed to be
                  only an inadequate expression of which the true logical form is A2,
                  or vice versa).

                  In my opinion, at least on the logical level there is a clear distinction
                  between the proposed three sentences. In "The Lord is with thee",
                  "The Lord" is the logical subject, of which "being with thee" is
                  predicated. In "You are with the Lord", the subject is "You",
                  and in the last one the subject is "The Lord and thou".
                  Although these sentences are _logically_ equivalent, i.e. they imply
                  from each other mutually, they are in fact essentially different:
                  they have different subjects and predicates. In the first you say
                  about the Lord that he has some relation of proximity to "thee", in
                  the second you say that "thou" have some relation of proximity to the
                  Lord. As theologians would claim, these relations are not the same and
                  differ radically in their ontological nature.

                  I am not exactly aware of what you mean by "functional", so I will
                  refrain from arguing whether they can be said to be "functionally" the
                  same. However, my belief is that grammar serves to express in some way
                  the logical structure of thought (or language, if you will). Therefore
                  it seems to me that if there is a logical distinction between two
                  sentences, and if there is some distinction in their grammatical structure,
                  that can be seen as corresponding to this logical distinction, then it
                  is unsubstantiated to deny that the grammatical structure reflects directly
                  the actual logical strucxture of these sentences, and can therefore
                  not be dismissed as mere surface variation in expressing one and the
                  same thing (thought or proposition).

                  > Maybe, it boils all down to a question of terminology. Just as in a
                  > sentence "the window was hit by a bullet" "bullet" is the logical
                  > subject, so is "with the" in the sentence in question.

                  I think I have to disagree from the (philosophical-)logician's point of
                  view. In this sentence the subject indeed is "the window". It is
                  the window that is the object of the mental act of characterizing,
                  known as judgement, therefore it is the window what is the subject of
                  the judgement from the logical point of view; and the characteristic
                  ascribed to the window is certain passion it suffers from the bullet,
                  i.e. it is the characteristic "that which has been hit by a bullet" is
                  the predicate of the judgement. Of course, this proposition or
                  judgement implies a _distinct_ judgement about the bullet, ascribing
                  it an _action_, namely that of having hit the window. And it also
                  implies many other distinct judgements, e.g. a judgement about the
                  existence of the action of the bullet's hitting the window, etc. They
                  are logically equivalent, but that does not mean identical.

                  I think I can trace why it seems that the "logical" subject of passive
                  sentences is the agent. It is because the real agent is the
                  ontological subject of the action. But the real patient is also
                  the ontological subject - of its passion. And regardless of all that, the
                  question of what the _logical_ subject of a judgement or proposition is
                  does not in any way depend on what the ontological subject is and what
                  the ontological property is. Nothing hinders you from making an
                  ontological property, such as action or passion (see the abovementioned
                  example) the logical subject of your proposition, since as long as
                  anything is capable of becoming an (ontological) object of human thought,
                  it is capable of becoming the logical subject of the judgements made
                  by humans, since to think about something means to ascribe it some
                  characteristics in judgements, in which it is the subject and the
                  characteristics the predicate.

                  Lukas, a would-be philosopher, but not a linguist,
                  who is nevertheless deeply enjoying this extremely
                  interesting discussion.
                • Lukas Novak
                  ... There was a rule in scholasticians disputations that it was the task of the one who denied a distinction to prove the identity, not vice versa. The reason
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 15, 2003
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                    David Kiltz wrote:

                    > Why bother with syntax anyway, if we don't make a distinction? I'm not
                    > trying to obscure an equation that doesn't exist but to illustrate a
                    > difference.

                    There was a rule in scholasticians' disputations that it was the task
                    of the one who denied a distinction to prove the identity, not vice
                    versa. The reason is that a false distinction does not produce
                    any false implications (it only hinders from inferring some true ones);
                    whereas false identity does.

                    Lukas
                  • Ales Bican
                    Patrick Wynne wrote in response to Hans wish to see some evidence ... **However, it must be noted that development of monosyllabic words (MWs) differed from
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 23, 2003
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                      Patrick Wynne wrote in response to Hans' wish "to see some evidence
                      why _-ni, -le_ are accusative in form":

                      > One reason for assuming _óni_ contains acc. _-ni_ is phonological,
                      > and a key piece of evidence occurs in the very sentence Hans cites:
                      > _tye-meláne_ 'I love thee' (V:61). The Etymologies gives the base
                      > of 'I' as NI- (2), and a consistent phonological rule throughout the
                      > external history of Q(u)enya is that original short final _*-i_
                      > becomes _-e_, e.g. *_liñwi_ 'fish' > Q _lingwe_ (V:369 s.v. LIW-).

                      **However, it must be noted that development of monosyllabic
                      words (MWs) differed from development of polysyllabic ones.
                      For instance, it seems that certain short vowels were lost finally
                      (cf. _abaro_ > CE _abar_, WJ/XI:371). This could not happen in MW,
                      because the very word would be lost then. Also, we know that long
                      vowels were reduced to short ones finally. However, MWs seem not
                      to reduce them, cf. _ní_ "woman" < NÍ (Etym) or _vá_, apparently
                      from _bá_ (WJ/XI:370). The Plotz Letter informs us that "all long
                      vowels were reduced to short vowels finally" in Spoken Quenya.
                      Again MWs seem not follow the rule, because we have _sí_ "now"
                      in "_Namárie_", for instance.

                      > Thus it is likely that the subject pronoun _-ne_ 'I' in _tye-
                      > meláne_is from earlier *_-ni_.

                      **That is certainly possible (though the subject pronoun for
                      "I" could have been simply *_-ne_ then (i.e. with the original
                      _e_, not from _i_)).

                      I think we do not have explicit examples of development of final
                      short _-i_ in MWs, but it is possible that even in them the _-i_
                      turned to _-e_. Or at least in the Etym (and _Lost Road_) era.
                      We may also note that Etym gives _no_ "under", apparently from
                      *_nu_. This would then show change of final _-u_ to _-o_
                      (parallel to change of _-i_ to _-e_) in a MW. Nevetheless, "_Namárie_"
                      gives _nu_ "under" instead. If we suppose that the "_Namárie_"
                      version of the preposition has the same origin, i.e. *_nu_, then it
                      might be that Tolkien changed his mind and decided that vowels
                      (or at least _u_ and _i_) did not undergo any change. Of course, the
                      origin of _nu_ might have been *_nó_, but we should then ask why
                      the long vowel was shortened if another long vowel in _sí_ was not.

                      > Note that the various versions of the Átaremma consistently
                      > maintain the distinction between nom. _emme_ 'we' and
                      > acc. _me_ 'us', e.g. _emme avatyarir_ 'we forgive' versus _úa
                      > mittanya me_ 'do not lead us' in At. I (VT43:8).

                      In a reply to Beregond Patrick wrote:

                      > I have shown that _-ni_ in _óni_ must derive from *_-nî_, the
                      > lengthened vowel strongly suggesting that it is accusative
                      > ["because *_ô-ni_ would regularly yield **_óne_"]; I have shown
                      > that _-me_ in _óme_ is identical in form with accusative _me_
                      > 'us' in the Átaremma and elsewhere, and that _te_ in _óte_
                      > appears to be identical to accusative _te_ 'them' in _a laita
                      > te_ 'praise them'. It is not unreasonable then to suppose that
                      > the other forms in this same chart, _óle_ et al., are based on
                      > accusative forms as well, with of course the exception of
                      > _onye, olye_, in which the endings _-nye, -lye_ are attested
                      > as nominative.

                      However, _me_ seems to be a nominative form as well, cf. _men_
                      in the same text. The form is not *_mén_, so it points rather to
                      nominative. I have mentioned that the form _sí_ "now" did not
                      undergo the shortening. Now consider _sín_ in SD/IX:310: the
                      vowel is not shortened when an ending _-n_ is added (whatever
                      its function). In Etym such a shortening is seen, because the base
                      SI- lists _sin_ besides _sí_. This is therefore another piece that
                      suggests that Tolkien changed his mind as regards the development
                      and behavior of MWs, because the form _sin_ appears in an
                      earlier version of the _Atalante_ Fragments (see LR/V:46).
                      Moreover, it is usually nominative (the least marked form) that
                      acquires case ending (more precisely, it is the least marked form
                      serves as nominative).

                      The fact that the reflex of final short CE _-i_ in _-e_ in Quenya is
                      not, in my view, sufficient for assuming that _-ni_ in an accusative
                      form, because as I have tried to show the behavior of CE
                      monosyllabic words is slightly different to the behavior of CE
                      polysyllabic words.

                      The question is whether_-ni_, _-le_ etc. in the _ó-_ chart (VT43:29)
                      are suffixes or whether the _ó-_ is a prefix. What I want to say is
                      which of the segments could stand alone, that is, which of them is
                      a separate word -- if any of them.

                      If _-ni, -le_ etc. are only suffixes and cannot stands as separate words,
                      I would not speak of them as of nominative or accusative forms but
                      rather as subject and object forms. Nominative does not necessarily
                      means subject and accusative does not necessarily mean object. Now
                      the question is of course whether they are subject or object forms.
                      It may be they are both (with _nye_ and _lye_ as alternatives).
                      However, if _ni, le_ etc. are separate words, then we can speak
                      about nominative and accusative, because the least marked forms
                      would be nominative from which accusative could be formed.
                      Nominatives would act as subjects and accusative as (direct) objects
                      in most cases. Yet here again I do not think we can say whether
                      they are the former or the latter, since the accusative as a case did
                      not exist in Spoken Quenya. Now as regards the forms _-s_ and
                      _-t_ (in _ós_ and _ót_, being variants of _ósa_ and _óta_), they
                      are hardly separate words. They may be reduced forms of _-sa_
                      and _-ta_ or plain suffixes, perhaps like _-nye_ and _-lye_, but
                      these could also perhaps stand alone, cf. _tye_ and _lye_ in _lyenna_.

                      > Acc. _me_ 'us' occurs in the dual form _met_ 'us two' in _Namárie_ as
                      > the object of a preposition: _imbe met_ 'between us (two)'.

                      **If _me_ is an accusative form, we should ask why the long vowel was
                      here shortened if long vowels seem not to be shortened in MWs. The
                      same with _met_ -- why is it not *_mét_?

                      > And I would propose that it is this same acc. _me_ that appears in
                      > _óme_ *'with us' in the chart cited in VT43:29. Similarly, the pl. pron.
                      _-te_ in _óte_ on the chart appears to be masculine, [...].

                      Does it? I think you meant "personal" (_-ta_ being impersonal), at least
                      this is what is implied from what is said on p. 20 of VT43. But if you really
                      meant masculine, what would be the corresponding feminine form?


                      Ales Bican
                    • Hans
                      ... In fact, the Plotz Letter says so explicitly, the sentence you quoted continues: ... and before final cons. in words of two or more syllables . This is
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 25, 2003
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                        --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, Ales Bican <ales.bican@s...> wrote:

                        > The Plotz Letter informs us that "all long
                        > vowels were reduced to short vowels finally" in Spoken Quenya.
                        > Again MWs seem not follow the rule, because we have _sí_ "now"
                        > in "_Namárie_", for instance.

                        In fact, the Plotz Letter says so explicitly, the sentence you quoted
                        continues: "... and before final cons. in words of two or more
                        syllables". This is obviously connected with stress, remember
                        that the prefix _ó-_ becomes _o-_ when unstressed (XI:367).
                        With the retraction of stress, final vowels became unstressed
                        always, and shortened. This did not necessarily (or never?)
                        happen in monosyllabic words.

                        > **That is certainly possible (though the subject pronoun for
                        > "I" could have been simply *_-ne_ then (i.e. with the original
                        > _e_, not from _i_)).

                        I can't see any reason to assume that. The _-ne_ in _meláne_ has a
                        natural explanation, and in any other case I know of, the form is
                        _ni_ or derived from it. Let's analyze a few occurrences of the 1.
                        person sg. pronoun in the corpus:

                        We have
                        _ni_ "I" (Arctic Sentence)
                        _Atarinya_ "my father" (V:61)
                        _meláne_ "I love" (same page)
                        _inye_ "I" (same page)
                        _indo-ninya_ "my heart" (V:72)
                        _nin_ "me" (same page)
                        _NI_2 "I" (V:378)

                        This shows a consistent picture up to Etymologies: _ni_ or _inye_ as
                        "I", _-nya_ or even _ni-nya_ as possessive suffix, _ni-n_ as dative.
                        The change *_-ni_ >_-ne_ in final position was purely phonological.
                        A short pronominal suffix _-n_ is found in numerous entries in
                        Etymologies, too. Again, this fits into the general picture: short final
                        vowels (since unstressed) were lost often. So we can see two
                        alternative developments: *_-ni_ > _-ne_ > _-n_, or instead
                        strengthening of the suffix _-ne_ > _-nye_. It seems likely that
                        the possessive suffix was formed by combining _ni_ with the adjectival
                        suffix _-ya_, *_-niya_ > _-nya_. The pronoun remained through all
                        stages of Quenya. It appeared as a prefix shortly:

                        _nilendie_ "I have come" (IX:56)
                        _nimaruvan_ "I shall dwell" (same page)

                        The dative form _nin_ "for me" appears in Namárie (LR:368) and in the
                        late notes on _óre_ (VT41:11). Some time between them, we have the
                        forms _ónye_ and _óni_. As I said already, the argument that the pronouns
                        are not nominative (or subjective) in form makes sense, in my opinion.
                        They shouldn't be, because a subject doesn't need prepositions.

                        > The fact that the reflex of final short CE _-i_ in _-e_ in Quenya is
                        > not, in my view, sufficient for assuming that _-ni_ in an accusative
                        > form, because as I have tried to show the behavior of CE
                        > monosyllabic words is slightly different to the behavior of CE
                        > polysyllabic words.

                        Sure, but _-ni_ attached to anything are two syllables at least. Of
                        course, Patrick's argument relies on the assumption that the
                        custom of attaching pronominal suffixes to prepositions (which
                        obviously did not exist in CE) occurred earlier than the change
                        of final short -i > -e.

                        It seems that _ni_ did not occur as a stand-alone word in the corpus
                        after the Arctic Sentence. _inye_ seems to be derived form an
                        augmented form *_i-ni_. At least, that would explain the difference
                        to _elye_ "you" (LR:368).

                        I'll return to "you" (and other pronouns) in other posts.

                        Hans
                      • David Kiltz
                        ... Orthotone vs enclitic variants ? David Kiltz
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 26, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Freitag, Mai 23, 2003, at 09:00 Uhr, Ales Bican wrote:

                          > **If _me_ is an accusative form, we should ask why the long vowel was
                          > here shortened if long vowels seem not to be shortened in MWs. The
                          > same with _met_ -- why is it not *_mét_?

                          Orthotone vs enclitic variants ?

                          David Kiltz
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