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Re: ÓNI, ONYE

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  • David Kiltz
    ... 1) Yes and no. There are two different aspects (of relationship) here. A. The formal level. On the formal level, e.g. _elye_ might as well be accusative.
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 16 1:20 AM
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      On Dienstag, April 15, 2003, at 06:31 Uhr, Carl Hostetter wrote:

      > I don't think it is valid to restructure a sentence and then assume
      > that it has any _necessary_ bearing on the grammatical relationships
      > of the parts of the original sentence.

      1) Yes and no. There are two different aspects (of relationship) here.
      A. The formal level. On the formal level, e.g. _elye_ might as well be
      accusative.

      [Note that I said "_necessary_ bearing". If one restructures a
      sentence and then uses it to make grammatical arguments concerning
      the functions of the parts of the sentence, the burden is on them to show
      that it is valid to do so in each particular case. CFH]

      B. Edouard, however, wrote "since they are not subject".
      This I do not agree with. Languages may vary as to how they encode a
      prepositional participant of a noun phrase (Semitic would use the
      genitive) but in a sentence like _I Heru aselye_ "the Lord is with
      thee", _asleye_ is, in my eyes, B. *functionally* the subject (namely
      Mary). Just as in the preceding parts of the prayer. "...Full of grace"
      "blessed thou art amongst women".

      [Whereas I would say that _-elye_ is _functionally_ the object of the
      preposition _as-_, but _formally_ indistinguishable from the nominative/
      subject form. That being said, I would welcome a typological study of
      attested Quenya to investigate whether and to what degree it varies
      from a western-Indo-European type in this and other matters.
      Moreover, it seems to me that asserting that _aselye_ 'with thee' is the
      subject is equivalent to saying that, in the sentence: "The grass is green",
      "green" is the subject (and, therefore, a noun). CFH]

      > Besides, how would you explain away the fact that in _I Heru aselye_
      > 'the Lord is with thee', the subject is _Heru_, leaving _-elye_ as the
      > object?

      Functionally, the first phrase can be rephrased as "thou art one the
      Lord is with". Here, I think it becomes clear that the case *encoding*
      does by no means necessarily imply anything about the function in a
      sentence. Or, with other words, I'm using "subject" and "object" as
      functional (semantical) categories, not formal ones.

      [You have yet to establish that your restructuring of the sentence has
      any necessary bearing on the interpretation of either the form or the
      function of the elements of the original sentence. CFH]

      So there is nothing to "explain away". When you say "leaving _-elye_
      as the object", you are referring to how an Indo-European language
      would typically encode a prepositional participant. That doesn't,
      however, change the fact (in my eyes) that it isn't the object of the
      sentence (functionally).

      [Again, I would say that _functionally_ it is the object (not of the
      sentence, but of the preposition), though _formally_ it is
      indistinguishable from a nominative/subject form. CFH]

      So, in short, I find that both you and Edouard fail to make a necessary
      distiction between the formal and functional level of the language here.

      [I don't feel that I have failed to make the necessary distinction; rather,
      the distinction I make of form vs. function seems to be the opposite of the
      one you make. CFH]

      > The fact that the object_-elye_ has the same _form_ as an object as
      > it does as a subject does _not_ mean that it cannot fill two grammatical
      > roles. Especially in a language that we know lost the formal distinction
      > between nominative and accusative generally.

      Absolutely with you. Never doubted that for a second.
    • Hans
      ... While this is true, it seems to me that the specific dual character of *WO _ó_/_o_ was emphasized only later, in _Quendi and Eldar_. That Q&E was
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 26 3:06 AM
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        Patrick Wynne wrote:

        > In fact, pretty much any "A with B" construction could be viewed as "dual"
        > in the sense of describing a "union of two things or persons, or of two
        > groups thought of as units".

        While this is true, it seems to me that the specific dual character of
        *WO > _ó_/_o_ was emphasized only later, in _Quendi and Eldar_. That
        Q&E was written later than the chart containing _óni_, _onye_, etc.
        (VT43:29), seems to be confirmed by the fact that we read there about
        *WO that "This does not remain in Q as an independent word" (XI:367).
        Indeed, in the latest version of _Aia María_, _olesse_ does no longer occur.
        A preposition (even with an appended pronoun) would be an independent
        word.

        [Indeed. Facts stated by Tolkien at one point in the conceptual history
        of his languages have no _necessary_ bearing on any other stage of that
        long history. The willingness to _force_ such facts to apply at all other
        stages and in all attested examples is a phenomenon of a regularizing and
        simplifying mind asserting its desires over both history and evidence, and
        is thus anti-scholarly. The proper approach is to examine _all_ the evidence
        bearing on a particular element or device, weighing each example and/or
        statement against the others, and then making such observations and
        claims as this evidence, as a whole, permits. CFH]

        It's interesting that we find _o_ not as a preposition, but as a conjunction in
        the Notion Club Papers, _O sauron túle_ (IX:246), replacing _Ar_ in an earlier
        variant. It seems to be used in the sense "with (them)", which is close to "and".
        This closeness in JRRT's understanding is confirmed by a preliminary version
        of a sentence in _The Return of the King_: _Sinome nimaruva yo hildinyar tenn'
        Ambar-metta!_ (XI:56), where _yo_ (the non-dual counterpart of *_wo_ according
        to XI:367) was replaced by _ar_ in the final version: _Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar
        tenn' Ambar-metta!_ (LR:946). VT43:33 mentions a root _ara_ "along side", and
        the closely related _as-_ is used in the sense "with" (VT43:30), so it seems that
        Quenya _ar_ has a more commitative sense than the English "and".

        Patrick further wrote:

        > nominative endings such as _-nye_, _-(e)lye_, etc. could in fact be attached
        > to prepositions to serve as objects. The chart in question indicates that these
        > forms coexisted with forms such as _óni_, _óle_, in which the endings _-ni, -le_
        > actually are accusative in form.

        While I agree on the first part, I'd like to see some evidence why _-ni, -le_ are
        accusative in form. The sentence quoted above shows that _ni-_ was used as
        nominative "I" in _nimaruva_, and the well-known _tye-meláne_ in _The Lost
        Road_ (V:68 in my DelRey paperback) shows the long form _tye_ as accusative
        "thee". _le_ seemed to coexist with a form *_lye_, as we know from a
        communication by Helge Fauskanger in Elfling message #14958 (May 11, 2000):
        _lyenna_ (obviously "upon you") is found in an JRRT autograph dating from 1968.

        [So says Helge. I wonder whether the word in question could instead be
        _tyenna_? Tolkien's _t_s and _l_s are sometimes difficult to distinguish, as he
        had a habit of placing the cross-bar of his _t_s far to the right of the vertical
        member, and also of "blending" it with the start of a following consonant. CFH]

        So it seems to me that _-ni, -le_ are just short forms, which (as the long forms)
        can be both nominative and accusative. This would be in accordance with the
        Plotz Letter, saying that accusative vanished from spoken Quenya, and the
        difference to nominative "was adequately expressed by word order" (VT6:14).
        Indeed, attaching a pronoun to a preposition clearly marks it as an object!

        Still, there should have been a formal difference in Book Quenya, and it's curious
        that it didn't survive. In languages like German, English, Italian,... the difference
        between acc. and nom. is no longer expressed in nouns, but still visible in
        pronouns. Given the fact that JRRT much hesitated even with the nominative forms
        of the pronouns, it seems unlikely that he had a clear vision of hypothetical
        accusative forms in Book Quenya, though.

        Hans
      • Patrick H. Wynne
        Hans wrote, in response to my statement that in _óni, óle_ the ... One reason for assuming _óni_ contains acc. _-ni_ is phonological, and a key piece of
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 29 5:43 AM
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          Hans wrote, in response to my statement that in _óni, óle_ "the
          endings _-ni, -le_ actually are accusative in form":

          > While I agree on the first part, I'd like to see some evidence
          > why _-ni, -le_ are accusative in form. The sentence quoted
          > above shows that _ni-_ was used as nominative "I" in _nimaruva_,
          > and the well-known _tye-meláne_ in _The Lost Road_ (V:68 in
          > my DelRey paperback) shows the long form _tye_ as accusative
          > "thee".

          One reason for assuming _óni_ contains acc. _-ni_ is phonological,
          and a key piece of evidence occurs in the very sentence Hans cites:
          _tye-meláne_ 'I love thee' (V:61). The Etymologies gives the base
          of 'I' as NI- (2), and a consistent phonological rule throughout the
          external history of Q(u)enya is that original short final _*-i_
          becomes _-e_, e.g. *_liñwi_ 'fish' > Q _lingwe_ (V:369 s.v. LIW-).
          Thus it is likely that the subject pronoun _-ne_ 'I' in _tye-
          meláne_is from earlier *_-ni_. Original short *_i_ was retained
          medially, and so we see the subject prefix _ni-_ 'I' in
          _nimaruva_ 'I will abide' and _nilendie_ 'I have come' (IX:56).

          In _óni_, however, this subject pronoun *_ni_ cannot be present,
          because *_ô-ni_ would regularly yield **_óne_. We must assume
          therefore that _-ni_ in _óni_ is from earlier *_-nî_, and it is
          very likely this lengthened _-î_ indicates *_-nî_ is accusative.
          According to the Plotz declension, Quenya originally possessed
          a distinct accusative marked by lengthening of the final vowel:
          nom. _cirya_ / acc. _ciryâ_; nom. _lasse_ / acc. _lassê_. This
          was retained in the written form of the language (Book
          Quenya), but was lost in the spoken tongue, the difference
          between nom. and acc. being "adequately expressed by
          word order" (PE10:27). Evidently the nom./acc. distinction
          was not _entirely_ lost in Quenya, being retained in the
          pronouns -- just as in English, in which the nom./acc.
          distinction has been lost in nouns but is retained in
          pronouns: he/him, she/her, they/them (as Hans notes).

          Note that the various versions of the Átaremma consistently
          maintain the distinction between nom. _emme_ 'we' and
          acc. _me_ 'us', e.g. _emme avatyarir_ 'we forgive' versus _úa
          mittanya me_ 'do not lead us' in At. I (VT43:8). Acc. _me_
          'us' occurs in the dual form _met_ 'us two' in _Namárie_ as
          the object of a preposition: _imbe met_ 'between us (two)'.
          And I would propose that it is this same acc. _me_ that
          appears in _óme_ *'with us' in the chart cited in VT43:29.
          Similarly, the pl. pron. _-te_ in _óte_ on the chart appears
          to be masculine, and can probably be identified with acc.
          _te_ 'them' in _a laite te_ 'praise them!' (LR:932), referring
          to Frodo and Samwise.

          -- Patrick H. Wynne
        • Beregond. Anders Stenström
          While Patrick Wynne presents reasons for his description of _-ni_ as accusative in form , distinct from the nominative ending . . . _-nye_ and from the
          Message 4 of 17 , May 2, 2003
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            While Patrick Wynne presents reasons for his description of _-ni_
            as "accusative in form", distinct from the "nominative ending . . .
            _-nye_" and from the subject prefix _ni-_ (the corresponding suffix
            form of this being rather _-ne_).

            But how is _-le_ distinct in form (as opposed to usage) from the
            subject prefix _le-_ (found in the discarded _le.ana_ in line 1 of
            Tolkien's unfinished Quenya version of the litany of Loreto,
            VT 44:12-13)?

            Meneg suilaid,

            Beregond

            [As previously discussed, while acc. _-ni_ in _�ni_ appears
            identical in form to nom. _ni-_ in _nimaruva, nilendie_, the
            acc. form must actually derive from *_-n�_, while the nom.
            form must derive from *_ni_ (> _-ne_ in _tye-mel�ne_ 'I
            love thee'). Note also that as a nom. prefix we see _ni-_
            with a short _i_, not **_n�maruva, n�lendie_.

            Similarly, while _-le_ in _�le_ appears identical in form to
            _le-_ in _le-ana_, it would be reasonable to suppose (after
            the model of nom. *_ni_, acc. *_n�_) that in the earlier
            language there was a formal distinction between nom.
            *_le_ and acc. *_l�_. And just as we see nom. _ni-_, not
            **_n�-_, in _nimaruva, nilendie_, so we see nom. _le-_ in
            _le-ana_, not **_l�-_.

            Also note Q _m�ne_ 'on-us' (IX:310), which might be
            analyzed as acc. *_m�_ 'us' + enclitic postposition *_-ne_
            'on' (perhaps cognate with ON, EN _ne-_ *'in', as in ON
            _nestak-_ 'insert, stick in', EN _nestegi_ < STAK- 'split,
            insert', V:388).

            -- Patrick H. Wynne]
          • Beregond. Anders Stenström
            ... Would not _é_ in **_lé-ana_ have been reduced, as is usual in hiatus position? That is, can we tell from this single example whether subject and object
            Message 5 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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              I wrote and Patrick Wynne answered:

              > But how is _-le_ distinct in form (as opposed to usage) from the
              > subject prefix _le-_ (found in the discarded _le.ana_ . . .)
              >
              > [. . . we see nom. _le-_ in _le-ana_, not **_lé-_. . . .]

              Would not _é_ in **_lé-ana_ have been reduced, as is usual
              in hiatus position? That is, can we tell from this single example
              whether subject and object form were not identically _lé_, both
              taking the form _le_ in the contexts under discussion?

              I do find Patrick's interpretation more attractive, though.

              Meneg suilaid,

              Beregond

              [I would say that yes, **_lé-ana_ would have been an allowable
              form at the time the pronoun chart was written, given the
              occurrance of _úa_ and _úalye_ in Átaremma I and IIa, which
              are contemporary with the chart. And while assuming con-
              sistency in pronominal forms taken from different compositional
              periods is an iffy proposition at best, we might suppose that
              the nom. prefix _ni-_ with short vowel in _nimaruva, nilendie_
              also argues that nom. prefix _le-_ in _le-ana_ was inherently
              short, rather than being long but shortened in hiatus position.

              It is _not_, however, an iffy proposition to suppose consistency
              in pronominal forms appearing in the same text. I have shown
              that _-ni_ in _óni_ must derive from *_-nî_, the lengthened
              vowel strongly suggesting that it is accusative; I have shown
              that _-me_ in _óme_ is identical in form with accusative _me_
              'us' in the Átaremma and elsewhere, and that _te_ in _óte_
              appears to be identical to accusative _te_ 'them' in _a laita
              te_ 'praise them'. It is not unreasonable then to suppose that
              the other forms in this same chart, _óle_ et al., are based on
              accusative forms as well, with of course the exception of
              _onye, olye_, in which the endings _-nye, -lye_ are attested
              as nominative.

              -- Patrick H. Wynne]
            • David Kiltz
              ... What, then, is your definition of object in this context? ... In German? What about e.g. nom. _der Ochse_, acc. _den Ochsen_? David Kiltz
              Message 6 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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                On Samstag, April 26, 2003, at 12:06 Uhr, Hans wrote:

                > Indeed, attaching a pronoun to a preposition clearly marks it as an
                > object!

                What, then, is your definition of "object" in this context?

                > In languages like German, English, Italian,... the difference
                > between acc. and nom. is no longer expressed in nouns

                In German? What about e.g. nom. _der Ochse_, acc. _den Ochsen_?

                David Kiltz
              • David Kiltz
                ... I don t understand the connection you make between green and with thee . The first is an adjective, with thee is not. Indeed with thee has no
                Message 7 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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                  On Mittwoch, April 16, 2003, at 10:20 Uhr, Carl Hostetter wrote:

                  > Moreover, it seems to me that asserting that _aselye_ 'with thee' is
                  > the subject is equivalent to saying that, in the sentence: "The grass is
                  > green", "green" is the subject (and, therefore, a noun).

                  I don't understand the connection you make between "green" and "with
                  thee". The first is an adjective, "with thee" is not. Indeed "with
                  thee" has no characteristics of an adjective but "thee" clearly is a
                  noun, just as in a phrase "with the dog" "dog" is a noun. I'd be
                  curious to know what you mean.

                  [My point is that the (predicate) prepositional phrase "with thee" is no
                  more the "subject" of the sentence than is the (predicate) adjective
                  "green". Yet you have called "with thee" the subject of the sentence.
                  Further, to what follows, while it is true that the copula has no
                  grammatical object in these sentences -- so far as I know that was
                  never in question, and certainly I never claimed that "with thee" is
                  the object of the copula -- nonetheless the preposition "with" does
                  have an object, namely "thee". CFH]

                  A functional object, as I understand it, is the second participant of a
                  verbal sentence. Cf. "I (subj.) see you (obj.)". In a nominal sentence
                  there is no object (functionally or logically). "The lord is with thee"
                  is functionally the same as "Thou art with the Lord" or "The Lord and
                  thou art together" (with semantic nuances, but that's irrelevant at
                  this point). The fact that in most I.-E. languages nouns, taking
                  prepositions, take the same *form* as objects of a verbal sentence do
                  does not, in any way, make them functionally the same. While I agree
                  that _elye_ may well be an oblique case (although the form isn't
                  clear), there is no question that it isn't an object. "To be" has a
                  valence of 1, it can never take an object. "With thee" is part of the
                  nominal phrase, it is an adnominal addition, not one to the verb. In
                  German the sentence reads "der Herr ist mit Dir". _Dir_ is the form of
                  the indirect object (dative) of _Du_ ("You"). Just as _Thee_. To call
                  _mit Dir_ an indirect object would, with all respect, in my eyes, be
                  absurd. Imagine a sentence: "Ich warte dich ihm" vs "Ich warte mit dir
                  auf ihn". In the latter sentence ("I wait for him with you") _auf ihn_
                  is indeed a prepositional object, however, _mit dir_ is *not* a
                  prepositional indirect object.

                  Maybe, it boils all down to a question of terminology. Just as in a
                  sentence "the window was hit by a bullet" "bullet" is the logical
                  subject, so is "with the" in the sentence in question. Again, the
                  *formal* identity of e.g. in German the indirect object (dative) with a
                  (pro)noun after the preposition "mit" has nothing to do with their
                  respective functions in these two, very different, cases.

                  [Yes, indeed, it has everything to do with terminology, as I thought
                  we'd already established. When you used "subject" as a shorthand for
                  the "logical subject" of the sentence, others (quite naturally, I think)
                  took it to mean the _grammatical_ subject of the sentence. This was
                  not really a matter of form, but of grammatical vs. (your view of)
                  logical function. But I still haven't been persuaded that the predicate
                  prepositional phrases in the sentences under discussion are in any
                  way a subject, logical or otherwise. CFH]
                • David Kiltz
                  ... The distinction logical vs grammatical subject is, IMHO, in general terms unfortunate. The definition of grammatical subject is apparently based solely
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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                    On Mittwoch, Mai 14, 2003, at 06:03 Uhr, Carl Hostetter wrote:

                    > When you used "subject" as a shorthand for the "logical subject" of
                    > the sentence, others (quite naturally, I think) took it to mean the
                    > _grammatical_ subject of the sentence. This was not really a matter
                    > of form, but of grammatical vs. (your view of) logical function. But I
                    > still haven't been persuaded that the predicate prepositional phrases
                    > in the sentences under discussion are in any way a subject, logical or
                    > otherwise. CFH]

                    The distinction logical vs grammatical subject is, IMHO, in general
                    terms unfortunate.

                    The definition of "grammatical subject" is apparently based solely on
                    formal grounds.

                    [Not at all. I think of the grammatical subject of a sentence as that
                    part of the sentence filling the role or function of the subject,
                    regardless of its form. You are quite right to have noted that form and
                    function must be kept separate (no matter how much they might coincide
                    at times); but that is not the failure of distinction here. As I see it,
                    you are taking a predicate prepositional phrase == prep. + grammatical obj.
                    of prep., and calling this the "subject" of the sentence, by which you mean
                    "logical subject". I have yet to be convinced that this has any validity,
                    but even if it does, it was your use of "subject" for (whatever you mean by)
                    "logical subject" that caused the confusion. CFH]

                    I think this view doesn't do the language justice. If, syntactically,
                    the subject is the first participant of a verb (or the only one of the
                    copula) then it is most prominently encoded as nominative but it
                    doesn't have to be. As you accepted, "to be" doesn't take an object.
                    What then is "thee", the object of a preposition ? I never heard
                    anybody call it that.

                    [Oh, but I have, many, many times, from many different sources,
                    spoken and written. I daresay anyone educated in grammar in an
                    English-speaking school will have learned to call such the "object of
                    the preposition". CFH]

                    The term object is ambiguous here since it is applied to two
                    syntactically (not formally) completely different phenomena. What I'm
                    aiming it, is establishing a relation between the syntactical terms subject
                    and object vis-à-vis case endings. Unlike Ivan Derzhanski I don't think
                    this obscures anything because there is no one-to-one relation between
                    those categories. I still don't see how it could make sense to say a
                    preposition takes the accusative and dative, hence we give it the same
                    name as a syntactical relation to a verb.

                    [And yet we do, and for very long now have. CFH]

                    Why bother with syntax anyway, if we don't make a distinction? I'm not
                    trying to obscure an equation that doesn't exist but to illustrate a
                    difference.

                    Out of curiosity: How would you define the function of subject and
                    object in a sentence?

                    [I don't think I would attempt to; I'm not that kind of linguist. But I
                    knows 'em when I sees 'em. CFH]

                    David Kiltz
                  • Frederick Hoyt
                    [This discussion is drifting far afield from Tolkien s languages -- whatever the linguistic merits of the discussion, we can be pretty certain that Tolkien
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 14, 2003
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                      [This discussion is drifting far afield from Tolkien's languages -- whatever
                      the linguistic merits of the discussion, we can be pretty certain that Tolkien
                      never concerned himself with "pivots" or "binding theory prominence" while
                      practising his language-making Art. If anyone wishes to continue this
                      discussion, it will have to be brought 'round to Tolkien again. CFH]

                      Please pardon me if I crash this thread.

                      Yehuda Falk of the Hebrew University has written a very nice (short,
                      clear, to the point) paper on the distinction between different notions
                      of "subject." He summarizes varies threads of research going back to at
                      least the early 1970's, and motivates a basic distinction between the
                      Pivot (grammatical subject, discourse-functional subject), and Logical
                      Subject (most 'salient' thematic participant). The distinction is
                      backed up by a battery of criteria drawing on a wide range of
                      languages. It's available online as a PDF:

                      http://cslipublications.stanford.edu/LFG/5/lfg00falk.pdf

                      Distinguishing between the Pivot and Logical Subject might go a long
                      way toward clearing up some of the terminological issues addressed in
                      the preceding posts. Whether or not one chooses to adopt the
                      terminology, the evidence clearly supports the distinction between a
                      grammatical subject and a semantic subject.

                      Thanks,

                      Fred Hoyt

                      Frederick M. Hoyt
                      Linguistics Department
                      University of Texas at Austin
                      fmhoyt@...
                      LIN 312 - The Linguistics of Middle-earth website:
                      http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~fmhoyt/LIN312Homepage/312Main.html
                    • Lukas Novak
                      ... Please excuse me to intrude on your learned discourse, but it seems to me that the differences are more than slight . It seems to me that arguing that
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 15, 2003
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                        David Kiltz wrote:

                        > A functional object, as I understand it, is the second participant of a
                        > verbal sentence. Cf. "I (subj.) see you (obj.)". In a nominal sentence
                        > there is no object (functionally or logically). "The lord is with thee"
                        > is functionally the same as "Thou art with the Lord" or "The Lord and
                        > thou art together" (with semantic nuances, but that's irrelevant at
                        > this point).

                        Please excuse me to intrude on your learned discourse, but it seems
                        to me that the differences are more than "slight". It seems to me that
                        arguing that these three sentences are "logically the same" is to make
                        the same mistake as many logicians do when they claim that since a
                        proposition A1 is equivalent to A2, they are one and the same (and
                        according to the logician's preferences, either A1 is claimed to be
                        only an inadequate expression of which the true logical form is A2,
                        or vice versa).

                        In my opinion, at least on the logical level there is a clear distinction
                        between the proposed three sentences. In "The Lord is with thee",
                        "The Lord" is the logical subject, of which "being with thee" is
                        predicated. In "You are with the Lord", the subject is "You",
                        and in the last one the subject is "The Lord and thou".
                        Although these sentences are _logically_ equivalent, i.e. they imply
                        from each other mutually, they are in fact essentially different:
                        they have different subjects and predicates. In the first you say
                        about the Lord that he has some relation of proximity to "thee", in
                        the second you say that "thou" have some relation of proximity to the
                        Lord. As theologians would claim, these relations are not the same and
                        differ radically in their ontological nature.

                        I am not exactly aware of what you mean by "functional", so I will
                        refrain from arguing whether they can be said to be "functionally" the
                        same. However, my belief is that grammar serves to express in some way
                        the logical structure of thought (or language, if you will). Therefore
                        it seems to me that if there is a logical distinction between two
                        sentences, and if there is some distinction in their grammatical structure,
                        that can be seen as corresponding to this logical distinction, then it
                        is unsubstantiated to deny that the grammatical structure reflects directly
                        the actual logical strucxture of these sentences, and can therefore
                        not be dismissed as mere surface variation in expressing one and the
                        same thing (thought or proposition).

                        > Maybe, it boils all down to a question of terminology. Just as in a
                        > sentence "the window was hit by a bullet" "bullet" is the logical
                        > subject, so is "with the" in the sentence in question.

                        I think I have to disagree from the (philosophical-)logician's point of
                        view. In this sentence the subject indeed is "the window". It is
                        the window that is the object of the mental act of characterizing,
                        known as judgement, therefore it is the window what is the subject of
                        the judgement from the logical point of view; and the characteristic
                        ascribed to the window is certain passion it suffers from the bullet,
                        i.e. it is the characteristic "that which has been hit by a bullet" is
                        the predicate of the judgement. Of course, this proposition or
                        judgement implies a _distinct_ judgement about the bullet, ascribing
                        it an _action_, namely that of having hit the window. And it also
                        implies many other distinct judgements, e.g. a judgement about the
                        existence of the action of the bullet's hitting the window, etc. They
                        are logically equivalent, but that does not mean identical.

                        I think I can trace why it seems that the "logical" subject of passive
                        sentences is the agent. It is because the real agent is the
                        ontological subject of the action. But the real patient is also
                        the ontological subject - of its passion. And regardless of all that, the
                        question of what the _logical_ subject of a judgement or proposition is
                        does not in any way depend on what the ontological subject is and what
                        the ontological property is. Nothing hinders you from making an
                        ontological property, such as action or passion (see the abovementioned
                        example) the logical subject of your proposition, since as long as
                        anything is capable of becoming an (ontological) object of human thought,
                        it is capable of becoming the logical subject of the judgements made
                        by humans, since to think about something means to ascribe it some
                        characteristics in judgements, in which it is the subject and the
                        characteristics the predicate.

                        Lukas, a would-be philosopher, but not a linguist,
                        who is nevertheless deeply enjoying this extremely
                        interesting discussion.
                      • Lukas Novak
                        ... There was a rule in scholasticians disputations that it was the task of the one who denied a distinction to prove the identity, not vice versa. The reason
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 15, 2003
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                          David Kiltz wrote:

                          > Why bother with syntax anyway, if we don't make a distinction? I'm not
                          > trying to obscure an equation that doesn't exist but to illustrate a
                          > difference.

                          There was a rule in scholasticians' disputations that it was the task
                          of the one who denied a distinction to prove the identity, not vice
                          versa. The reason is that a false distinction does not produce
                          any false implications (it only hinders from inferring some true ones);
                          whereas false identity does.

                          Lukas
                        • Ales Bican
                          Patrick Wynne wrote in response to Hans wish to see some evidence ... **However, it must be noted that development of monosyllabic words (MWs) differed from
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 23, 2003
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                            Patrick Wynne wrote in response to Hans' wish "to see some evidence
                            why _-ni, -le_ are accusative in form":

                            > One reason for assuming _óni_ contains acc. _-ni_ is phonological,
                            > and a key piece of evidence occurs in the very sentence Hans cites:
                            > _tye-meláne_ 'I love thee' (V:61). The Etymologies gives the base
                            > of 'I' as NI- (2), and a consistent phonological rule throughout the
                            > external history of Q(u)enya is that original short final _*-i_
                            > becomes _-e_, e.g. *_liñwi_ 'fish' > Q _lingwe_ (V:369 s.v. LIW-).

                            **However, it must be noted that development of monosyllabic
                            words (MWs) differed from development of polysyllabic ones.
                            For instance, it seems that certain short vowels were lost finally
                            (cf. _abaro_ > CE _abar_, WJ/XI:371). This could not happen in MW,
                            because the very word would be lost then. Also, we know that long
                            vowels were reduced to short ones finally. However, MWs seem not
                            to reduce them, cf. _ní_ "woman" < NÍ (Etym) or _vá_, apparently
                            from _bá_ (WJ/XI:370). The Plotz Letter informs us that "all long
                            vowels were reduced to short vowels finally" in Spoken Quenya.
                            Again MWs seem not follow the rule, because we have _sí_ "now"
                            in "_Namárie_", for instance.

                            > Thus it is likely that the subject pronoun _-ne_ 'I' in _tye-
                            > meláne_is from earlier *_-ni_.

                            **That is certainly possible (though the subject pronoun for
                            "I" could have been simply *_-ne_ then (i.e. with the original
                            _e_, not from _i_)).

                            I think we do not have explicit examples of development of final
                            short _-i_ in MWs, but it is possible that even in them the _-i_
                            turned to _-e_. Or at least in the Etym (and _Lost Road_) era.
                            We may also note that Etym gives _no_ "under", apparently from
                            *_nu_. This would then show change of final _-u_ to _-o_
                            (parallel to change of _-i_ to _-e_) in a MW. Nevetheless, "_Namárie_"
                            gives _nu_ "under" instead. If we suppose that the "_Namárie_"
                            version of the preposition has the same origin, i.e. *_nu_, then it
                            might be that Tolkien changed his mind and decided that vowels
                            (or at least _u_ and _i_) did not undergo any change. Of course, the
                            origin of _nu_ might have been *_nó_, but we should then ask why
                            the long vowel was shortened if another long vowel in _sí_ was not.

                            > Note that the various versions of the Átaremma consistently
                            > maintain the distinction between nom. _emme_ 'we' and
                            > acc. _me_ 'us', e.g. _emme avatyarir_ 'we forgive' versus _úa
                            > mittanya me_ 'do not lead us' in At. I (VT43:8).

                            In a reply to Beregond Patrick wrote:

                            > I have shown that _-ni_ in _óni_ must derive from *_-nî_, the
                            > lengthened vowel strongly suggesting that it is accusative
                            > ["because *_ô-ni_ would regularly yield **_óne_"]; I have shown
                            > that _-me_ in _óme_ is identical in form with accusative _me_
                            > 'us' in the Átaremma and elsewhere, and that _te_ in _óte_
                            > appears to be identical to accusative _te_ 'them' in _a laita
                            > te_ 'praise them'. It is not unreasonable then to suppose that
                            > the other forms in this same chart, _óle_ et al., are based on
                            > accusative forms as well, with of course the exception of
                            > _onye, olye_, in which the endings _-nye, -lye_ are attested
                            > as nominative.

                            However, _me_ seems to be a nominative form as well, cf. _men_
                            in the same text. The form is not *_mén_, so it points rather to
                            nominative. I have mentioned that the form _sí_ "now" did not
                            undergo the shortening. Now consider _sín_ in SD/IX:310: the
                            vowel is not shortened when an ending _-n_ is added (whatever
                            its function). In Etym such a shortening is seen, because the base
                            SI- lists _sin_ besides _sí_. This is therefore another piece that
                            suggests that Tolkien changed his mind as regards the development
                            and behavior of MWs, because the form _sin_ appears in an
                            earlier version of the _Atalante_ Fragments (see LR/V:46).
                            Moreover, it is usually nominative (the least marked form) that
                            acquires case ending (more precisely, it is the least marked form
                            serves as nominative).

                            The fact that the reflex of final short CE _-i_ in _-e_ in Quenya is
                            not, in my view, sufficient for assuming that _-ni_ in an accusative
                            form, because as I have tried to show the behavior of CE
                            monosyllabic words is slightly different to the behavior of CE
                            polysyllabic words.

                            The question is whether_-ni_, _-le_ etc. in the _ó-_ chart (VT43:29)
                            are suffixes or whether the _ó-_ is a prefix. What I want to say is
                            which of the segments could stand alone, that is, which of them is
                            a separate word -- if any of them.

                            If _-ni, -le_ etc. are only suffixes and cannot stands as separate words,
                            I would not speak of them as of nominative or accusative forms but
                            rather as subject and object forms. Nominative does not necessarily
                            means subject and accusative does not necessarily mean object. Now
                            the question is of course whether they are subject or object forms.
                            It may be they are both (with _nye_ and _lye_ as alternatives).
                            However, if _ni, le_ etc. are separate words, then we can speak
                            about nominative and accusative, because the least marked forms
                            would be nominative from which accusative could be formed.
                            Nominatives would act as subjects and accusative as (direct) objects
                            in most cases. Yet here again I do not think we can say whether
                            they are the former or the latter, since the accusative as a case did
                            not exist in Spoken Quenya. Now as regards the forms _-s_ and
                            _-t_ (in _ós_ and _ót_, being variants of _ósa_ and _óta_), they
                            are hardly separate words. They may be reduced forms of _-sa_
                            and _-ta_ or plain suffixes, perhaps like _-nye_ and _-lye_, but
                            these could also perhaps stand alone, cf. _tye_ and _lye_ in _lyenna_.

                            > Acc. _me_ 'us' occurs in the dual form _met_ 'us two' in _Namárie_ as
                            > the object of a preposition: _imbe met_ 'between us (two)'.

                            **If _me_ is an accusative form, we should ask why the long vowel was
                            here shortened if long vowels seem not to be shortened in MWs. The
                            same with _met_ -- why is it not *_mét_?

                            > And I would propose that it is this same acc. _me_ that appears in
                            > _óme_ *'with us' in the chart cited in VT43:29. Similarly, the pl. pron.
                            _-te_ in _óte_ on the chart appears to be masculine, [...].

                            Does it? I think you meant "personal" (_-ta_ being impersonal), at least
                            this is what is implied from what is said on p. 20 of VT43. But if you really
                            meant masculine, what would be the corresponding feminine form?


                            Ales Bican
                          • Hans
                            ... In fact, the Plotz Letter says so explicitly, the sentence you quoted continues: ... and before final cons. in words of two or more syllables . This is
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 25, 2003
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                              --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, Ales Bican <ales.bican@s...> wrote:

                              > The Plotz Letter informs us that "all long
                              > vowels were reduced to short vowels finally" in Spoken Quenya.
                              > Again MWs seem not follow the rule, because we have _sí_ "now"
                              > in "_Namárie_", for instance.

                              In fact, the Plotz Letter says so explicitly, the sentence you quoted
                              continues: "... and before final cons. in words of two or more
                              syllables". This is obviously connected with stress, remember
                              that the prefix _ó-_ becomes _o-_ when unstressed (XI:367).
                              With the retraction of stress, final vowels became unstressed
                              always, and shortened. This did not necessarily (or never?)
                              happen in monosyllabic words.

                              > **That is certainly possible (though the subject pronoun for
                              > "I" could have been simply *_-ne_ then (i.e. with the original
                              > _e_, not from _i_)).

                              I can't see any reason to assume that. The _-ne_ in _meláne_ has a
                              natural explanation, and in any other case I know of, the form is
                              _ni_ or derived from it. Let's analyze a few occurrences of the 1.
                              person sg. pronoun in the corpus:

                              We have
                              _ni_ "I" (Arctic Sentence)
                              _Atarinya_ "my father" (V:61)
                              _meláne_ "I love" (same page)
                              _inye_ "I" (same page)
                              _indo-ninya_ "my heart" (V:72)
                              _nin_ "me" (same page)
                              _NI_2 "I" (V:378)

                              This shows a consistent picture up to Etymologies: _ni_ or _inye_ as
                              "I", _-nya_ or even _ni-nya_ as possessive suffix, _ni-n_ as dative.
                              The change *_-ni_ >_-ne_ in final position was purely phonological.
                              A short pronominal suffix _-n_ is found in numerous entries in
                              Etymologies, too. Again, this fits into the general picture: short final
                              vowels (since unstressed) were lost often. So we can see two
                              alternative developments: *_-ni_ > _-ne_ > _-n_, or instead
                              strengthening of the suffix _-ne_ > _-nye_. It seems likely that
                              the possessive suffix was formed by combining _ni_ with the adjectival
                              suffix _-ya_, *_-niya_ > _-nya_. The pronoun remained through all
                              stages of Quenya. It appeared as a prefix shortly:

                              _nilendie_ "I have come" (IX:56)
                              _nimaruvan_ "I shall dwell" (same page)

                              The dative form _nin_ "for me" appears in Namárie (LR:368) and in the
                              late notes on _óre_ (VT41:11). Some time between them, we have the
                              forms _ónye_ and _óni_. As I said already, the argument that the pronouns
                              are not nominative (or subjective) in form makes sense, in my opinion.
                              They shouldn't be, because a subject doesn't need prepositions.

                              > The fact that the reflex of final short CE _-i_ in _-e_ in Quenya is
                              > not, in my view, sufficient for assuming that _-ni_ in an accusative
                              > form, because as I have tried to show the behavior of CE
                              > monosyllabic words is slightly different to the behavior of CE
                              > polysyllabic words.

                              Sure, but _-ni_ attached to anything are two syllables at least. Of
                              course, Patrick's argument relies on the assumption that the
                              custom of attaching pronominal suffixes to prepositions (which
                              obviously did not exist in CE) occurred earlier than the change
                              of final short -i > -e.

                              It seems that _ni_ did not occur as a stand-alone word in the corpus
                              after the Arctic Sentence. _inye_ seems to be derived form an
                              augmented form *_i-ni_. At least, that would explain the difference
                              to _elye_ "you" (LR:368).

                              I'll return to "you" (and other pronouns) in other posts.

                              Hans
                            • David Kiltz
                              ... Orthotone vs enclitic variants ? David Kiltz
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 26, 2003
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                                On Freitag, Mai 23, 2003, at 09:00 Uhr, Ales Bican wrote:

                                > **If _me_ is an accusative form, we should ask why the long vowel was
                                > here shortened if long vowels seem not to be shortened in MWs. The
                                > same with _met_ -- why is it not *_mét_?

                                Orthotone vs enclitic variants ?

                                David Kiltz
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