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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Palatalization and Syllabification in Quenya

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  • Ales Bican
    ... **Ok. Am looking forward to. ... **As I said I was not a phonetician. What I mean by palato-dentals is the sounds like _t , d _ in Czech and Hungarian
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 9, 2003
      David Kiltz wrote:

      > >> Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think
      > >> that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y.
      > >
      > > **I see. Why do you think so?
      > I will address this issue in a seperate post.

      **Ok. Am looking forward to.

      > > **What do you think these combinations (Ty, Dy, Ny (+Thy)) stand for?
      > Well, a palato-dental, in my view, is a "palatalized" sound. Maybe they
      > where palato-alveolars or lamino-palatals (i.e. articulated at the same
      > place as e.g. English [sh and zh]).

      **As I said I was not a phonetician. What I mean by palato-dentals is
      the sounds like _t', d'_ in Czech and Hungarian (called "palatals" in IPA).
      They are not palatalized in the sense that the palatalization is a kind of
      secondary articulation, a timbre added to primary articulation. Of course,
      the difference between a palatal _t'_ and palatalized _t_ would be very
      difficult to perceive.

      They may well be palato-alveolars, but the difference between alveolars
      and dentals is not relevant here; English _t_ is alveolar, while Czech _t_
      is dental or rather pre-alveolar. I chose to call them dentals, because Tolkien
      speaks about these sounds as dentals.

      > At any rate an inventory with regular
      > palatals + palato-dentals looks very dubious. Again, I think true dental
      > pronunciation only allows for palatalization.

      **It is certainly a little bit strange to have both palato-velars and palato-
      dentals in one system. The question is how else interpret KY and TY.

      > > in WJ:367 Tolkien said that _ó-_ is "usually reduced
      > > to _o-_ when unstressed". He then gave these examples: _omentie_,
      > > _ónoni_ "twins" and _onóna_ "twin-born". I would therefore expect
      > > *_óhlon_, but since we do not see this form, I think it may suggest
      > > _hl_ here functions as a consonant cluster.
      > Yes, I agree. Just as _ry_ is.

      **This is what I think from the beginning -- and therefore we can have
      a long vowel before a consonant cluster (sc. _máryat_).

      > > **Note that the _o-_ in _ohlon_ is not an inflected preposition but
      > > a prefix. And as regards _onye_, it contrasts with _óni_ where no
      > > reduction occurs because there is no consonant cluster while _ny_
      > > in _onye_ is potentially a cluster because of the reduction. If _ny_
      > > was a single phoneme (sound), there would be no reason for the
      > > reduction.
      > Just what I said. I noted that _ó_ is a preposition and that it is
      > inflected. I am and was quite aware that _ohlon_ is not an inflected
      > preposition. My remarks were meant to contrast this, in my view perfectly
      > regular behaviour, with that of _máryat_. Interestingly, you're answering your
      > own question about _ny_. I think it stands for _n+y_, a cluster indeed.

      **Again, I think the same from the beginning when I talked about
      primary and secondary Cy combinations. The question is now
      whether the combination _ny_ should be identified with word-initial
      _ny-_, I mean whether we could say that the biphonematic combination
      /nj/ is realized as [nj] (resp. [n'j] or [Nj]; n' = palatalized; N = palatal n)
      intervocalically and as [N] word-initially and after another consonant
      (i.e. in cases like _nty_ or _lty_). I hesitate to do so, though.

      > >> Note that the _á_ of _máryat_ is indeed shortened when combined
      > >> with a derivational element yielding a whole new word, cf: _-maite_.
      > >
      > > there seems not to be any statement of Tolkien's prohibiting long
      > > vowels before a consonant cluster.
      > But we see reduction almost everywhere else.

      **That is true. And my best explanation is that _máryat_ is some kind
      of exception.

      > > **Personally, I thought the name _Hristo_ was taken from Latin
      > > 'Christus' where the 'ch' is pronounced as [x] (if I am not mistaken),
      > > hence _xr-_ > _r-voiceless_, just as I suppose _sr-_ > _xr-_/_hr-_
      > > _r-voiceless_.
      > The word is of Greek origin. Why would it be taken from Latin where it
      > is itself a loan?

      **Well, I am not skilled in these things. I just thought that _María_ seemed
      to be taken from Latin and so could _Hristo_ be.

      > Also, in view of Christian-Latin texts and the development
      > of the word "Christus" in the Romanic languages (_cr-_) I think it was
      > pronounced [kr]. That makes a direct loan from Greek into Quenya even
      > more likely, I'd say.

      **I may be wrong but I have always thought it was pronounced
      [xr-] in Greek, since Greek had the [x] sound, and this pronunciation
      was used in Latin, too. I may be wrong, of course.

      [on _hl, hr_ etc. in Old English:]

      > 1) They are biphonemic combinations as can be gleaned from their use in
      > alliterative verse. These _h_'s go back to pre-Germanic _k_.

      **I see. I suspected it was so.

      > 2) I don't think this is where Tolkien got the inspiration. At least
      > not in the case of _hl_ and _hr_ which < *_sl_ and *_sr_. I'd warrant
      > the guess that the sounds (voiceless _l_ and _r_), were suggested to
      > him by Welsh.

      **Thanks for the information. I do not know any Welsh but I
      know a little bit Old English, so this is why I thought so.
      Anyway, what is the phonologic status of _hr_ and _hl_ in Welsh
      then? And are you suggesting that they are reflexes of _sl_ and

      Ales Bican
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