Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: ómentie - excursus on mamilla

Expand Messages
  • Hans Georg Lundahl
    ... Pas du tout. Not at all. The vowels in _mamilla_ are all short. Just like the vowels in primitive _mamma_ (which does not mean mother , but if I recall
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
      "Edward J. Kloczko" <ejk@...> wrote:

      > _mammilla_ > _mamilla_ shows the usual and well known Latin internal geminated
      > consonant simplification after a long vowel, as _*seddolod_ > _sedulo_; or
      > _*sed-cubo_ > _*seccubo_ > _secubo_, etc. This phenomenon goes as well for the
      > Germanic as you pointed out in your post but not in Ancient Greek.
      >
      > In Quenya we are dealing with an initial long vowel shortening.

      Pas du tout. Not at all. The vowels in _mamilla_ are all short. Just like the vowels in
      primitive _mamma_ (which does not mean 'mother', but if I recall correctly, 'female
      breast' -- _mamilla_ means 'nipple'). The reason cannot therefore be any clash
      between long vowel and long consonant. On _sedulo_ I pass. As for _secubo_ you
      may be right or the composition may be later than the fall of d in _sed-_. But in
      _mamilla_, we have a long syllable shortened precisely because it is pretonic --
      not that this shortening is absolutly regular, rather it is sporadic (a Jung-grammarian
      would say: often reversed by analogy). At least that is the account of _mammilla_ >
      _mamilla_ given by the learned Stowasser, and you have not disproven it. Is the Greek
      cognate -- if any -- a word in letter _eta_ (Ionic-Attic dialect group)?

      If -- as is most probable -- the explanation of short first syllable in _mamilla_ is
      rhythmic, the rhythmic feeling of mature Latin -- the relevance to Quenya, which
      borrows nearly all of Latin prosody (not the muta cum liquida exception, nor the
      accent on last syllable when followed by an enclitic word, but the rest), is obvious
      -- except that more learned eldalambengolmor than myself are saying that the
      root of that prefix was originally short. But even then: a reason for shortening in
      one language may be a reason for not lengthening in another.

      Hans Georg Lundahl

      Gå före i kön och få din sajt värderad på nolltid med Yahoo! Express

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... Edouard is correct that the root *WO (XI:367; no CE prefix form *_wo-_ is actually cited there) underlying the Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_ is not stated in
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
        On Saturday, March 22, 2003, at 09:46 AM, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

        > Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
        >
        >> Given that Q _o-_/_ó-_ and T _wo-_/_vo-_ are known to have arisen
        >> from a variably-lengthened element even in Common Eldarin,
        >
        > That is not how I interpret the text in WJ. The root in CE is written
        > _WO_ with a short _o_. The usual lengthening of _o_ is presented as a
        > development in the CE _word_ wô only; _wo-_ is stated to be a prefix,
        > there is no CE prefix _wô-_ apparently at that time, from my
        > understanding.

        Edouard is correct that the root *WO (XI:367; no CE prefix form *_wo-_
        is actually cited there) underlying the Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_ is
        not stated in _Quendi and Eldar_ to have been variably lengthened.
        However, its CE reflexes, the independent and length- (and perhaps
        stress-) contrastive words *_wô_ and *_wo_ [? stands for macron], are
        cited as a pair elsewhere in _Q&E_ (XI:366). We are also told (367)
        that *WO "does not remain in Q as an independent word", but is "a
        frequent prefix in the form _ó-_ (usually reduced to _o-_ when
        unstressed)". Taken together, this suggests that the Quenya prefix _ó-_
        is _in origin_ a reflex of the CE independent word *_wô_, and that its
        shortened counterpart _o-_ is _in origin_ a reflex of CE *_wo_ (though
        with much subsequent leveling of forms in Quenya due to stress
        patterns).

        As further support for this, note that the _Etymologies_ tells us that:
        "In Q the form _wô_, and the unstressed _wo_ [there is a breve in the
        text], combined to produce prefix [_o-_ / _ô-_] 'together'" (V:399 s.v.
        WÔ-).

        It does appear, then, that a length- (and stress-?) contrastive pair of
        CE words *_wô_, *_wo_ underlies the variably lengthened and stressed
        Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_.

        --
        =========================================================================================Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

        ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
        Ars longa, vita brevis.
        The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
        "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
        a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.