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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: ómentie

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  • Edward J. Kloczko
    ... _mammilla_ _mamilla_ shows the usual and well known Latin internal geminated consonant simplification after a long vowel, as _*seddolod_ _sedulo_; or
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
      Hans Georg Lundahl a écrit:

      > Ecrit M. Kloczko:
      >
      > "My question is quite unrelated to the stress pattern itself, but to "why/how?"
      > (?Old) Quenya _ómentie_ > Quenya _omentie_."
      >
      > Well - how come Old Latin _mammilla_ becomes Latin _mamilla_?

      _mammilla_ > _mamilla_ shows the usual and well known Latin internal geminated
      consonant simplification after a long vowel, as _*seddolod_ > _sedulo_; or
      _*sed-cubo_ > _*seccubo_ > _secubo_, etc. This phenomenon goes as well for the
      Germanic as you pointed out in your post but not in Ancient Greek.

      In Quenya we are dealing with an initial long vowel shortening.

      Edouard Kloczko
    • Hans Georg Lundahl
      ... Pas du tout. Not at all. The vowels in _mamilla_ are all short. Just like the vowels in primitive _mamma_ (which does not mean mother , but if I recall
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
        "Edward J. Kloczko" <ejk@...> wrote:

        > _mammilla_ > _mamilla_ shows the usual and well known Latin internal geminated
        > consonant simplification after a long vowel, as _*seddolod_ > _sedulo_; or
        > _*sed-cubo_ > _*seccubo_ > _secubo_, etc. This phenomenon goes as well for the
        > Germanic as you pointed out in your post but not in Ancient Greek.
        >
        > In Quenya we are dealing with an initial long vowel shortening.

        Pas du tout. Not at all. The vowels in _mamilla_ are all short. Just like the vowels in
        primitive _mamma_ (which does not mean 'mother', but if I recall correctly, 'female
        breast' -- _mamilla_ means 'nipple'). The reason cannot therefore be any clash
        between long vowel and long consonant. On _sedulo_ I pass. As for _secubo_ you
        may be right or the composition may be later than the fall of d in _sed-_. But in
        _mamilla_, we have a long syllable shortened precisely because it is pretonic --
        not that this shortening is absolutly regular, rather it is sporadic (a Jung-grammarian
        would say: often reversed by analogy). At least that is the account of _mammilla_ >
        _mamilla_ given by the learned Stowasser, and you have not disproven it. Is the Greek
        cognate -- if any -- a word in letter _eta_ (Ionic-Attic dialect group)?

        If -- as is most probable -- the explanation of short first syllable in _mamilla_ is
        rhythmic, the rhythmic feeling of mature Latin -- the relevance to Quenya, which
        borrows nearly all of Latin prosody (not the muta cum liquida exception, nor the
        accent on last syllable when followed by an enclitic word, but the rest), is obvious
        -- except that more learned eldalambengolmor than myself are saying that the
        root of that prefix was originally short. But even then: a reason for shortening in
        one language may be a reason for not lengthening in another.

        Hans Georg Lundahl

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      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... Edouard is correct that the root *WO (XI:367; no CE prefix form *_wo-_ is actually cited there) underlying the Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_ is not stated in
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
          On Saturday, March 22, 2003, at 09:46 AM, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

          > Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
          >
          >> Given that Q _o-_/_ó-_ and T _wo-_/_vo-_ are known to have arisen
          >> from a variably-lengthened element even in Common Eldarin,
          >
          > That is not how I interpret the text in WJ. The root in CE is written
          > _WO_ with a short _o_. The usual lengthening of _o_ is presented as a
          > development in the CE _word_ wô only; _wo-_ is stated to be a prefix,
          > there is no CE prefix _wô-_ apparently at that time, from my
          > understanding.

          Edouard is correct that the root *WO (XI:367; no CE prefix form *_wo-_
          is actually cited there) underlying the Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_ is
          not stated in _Quendi and Eldar_ to have been variably lengthened.
          However, its CE reflexes, the independent and length- (and perhaps
          stress-) contrastive words *_wô_ and *_wo_ [? stands for macron], are
          cited as a pair elsewhere in _Q&E_ (XI:366). We are also told (367)
          that *WO "does not remain in Q as an independent word", but is "a
          frequent prefix in the form _ó-_ (usually reduced to _o-_ when
          unstressed)". Taken together, this suggests that the Quenya prefix _ó-_
          is _in origin_ a reflex of the CE independent word *_wô_, and that its
          shortened counterpart _o-_ is _in origin_ a reflex of CE *_wo_ (though
          with much subsequent leveling of forms in Quenya due to stress
          patterns).

          As further support for this, note that the _Etymologies_ tells us that:
          "In Q the form _wô_, and the unstressed _wo_ [there is a breve in the
          text], combined to produce prefix [_o-_ / _ô-_] 'together'" (V:399 s.v.
          WÔ-).

          It does appear, then, that a length- (and stress-?) contrastive pair of
          CE words *_wô_, *_wo_ underlies the variably lengthened and stressed
          Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_.

          --
          =========================================================================================Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

          ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
          Ars longa, vita brevis.
          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
          "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
          a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
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