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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: ómentie

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  • Edward J. Kloczko
    ... Quite so, but I did not imply in my post that a word such as _ómentie_ was not possible in Quenya. My question is quite unrelated to the stress pattern
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 21, 2003
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      Pavel Iosad a écrit (regarding the stress pattern of _ómentie_):

      > To which I hasten to add that Quenya possessed a strong, if lower in
      > tone, initial stress, and even though in _ómentie_ it precedes the main
      > stress, it can account for the length of the _ó_ (viz., it would exactly be
      > retained if the syllable were long)

      Quite so, but I did not imply in my post that a word such as _ómentie_ was not
      possible in Quenya.

      My question is quite unrelated to the stress pattern itself, but to "why/how?"
      (?Old) Quenya _ómentie_ > Quenya _omentie_.

      Edouard Kloczko
    • Edward J. Kloczko
      ... Tolkien is quite careful when making his own grammatical rules . He is writing for himself and appears to always let some open doors (as we say in
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 21, 2003
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        Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:

        > [But Tolkien said _normally_ unstressed, not _always_ unstressed;

        Tolkien is quite careful when making his own "grammatical rules". He is
        writing for himself and appears to always let some "open doors" (as we say in
        French...) in case he might be needing an exception to his rules.
        Pure Tolkien Rhetoric. :-)

        > and indeed we
        > do see long-long syllable patterns in Quenya, as, for instance, in _únótime_,

        Yes _únótime_ has two long syllables, but I did not imply in my post that such
        a pattern was not permitted in Quenya. Tolkien stated (see WJ, p. 367) that in
        case of the prefix _ó-_ it was shortened to _o-_ in that case, or most of the
        time, and it is not the case for _ú-_, that's all.

        <snip>

        > and in _ósanwe_ 'interchange
        > of thought (between 2 _samat_)' (VT41:5), this last form beginning with
        > the same prefix _ó-_ seen in _ómentie_. Further, it need not be thought
        > that the reduction in stress is not operative within modern Quenya itself,
        > removing the objection of the constrastive development of short *_o-_ vs.
        > long *_ó-_. CFH]


        A word such as _ósanwe_ was a "new compound", made up in Aman, of
        which the word _sanwe_ was clearly recognised by the Eldar.

        Anyway, that does not explain why an (?Old) Quenya _ómentie_ would yield
        _omentie_? Tolkien should have cited _ómentie_ when explaining _omentie_
        in WJ, p. 367. Tolkien wrote "o-mentie" only.

        According to the explanations given by Tolkien in "War of the Jewels", if
        _omentie_ was in the past (Old Quenya) _ómentie_, then the Telerin cognate
        word must have been _wómentie/vómentie_, but instead Tolkien gave
        _womentie/vomentie_.

        Edouard Kloczko
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... Ah, but you did, when you wrote yesterday (in message 369): the direct ancestor of Q. _omentie_ could not have had a long ó, because the next following
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 21, 2003
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          On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 08:14 AM, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

          > Yes _únótime_ has two long syllables, but I did not imply in my post
          > that such a pattern was not permitted in Quenya.

          Ah, but you did, when you wrote yesterday (in message 369): "the direct
          ancestor of Q. _omentie_ could not have had a long ó, because the next
          following syllable is long: _ent_ (om-ent-i-e); cf. 'this prefix was
          normally unstressed [...] when the next following syllable was long'".

          > A word such as _ósanwe_ was a "new compound", made up in Aman, of
          > which the word _sanwe_ was clearly recognised by the Eldar.

          This is a plausible hypothesis, but you've stated it as a fact. Please
          qualify your hypotheses so as not to seem to be asserting what is in
          fact not certain.

          > Anyway, that does not explain why an (?Old) Quenya _ómentie_ would
          > yield _omentie_? Tolkien should have cited _ómentie_ when explaining
          > _omentie_ in WJ, p. 367. Tolkien wrote "o-mentie" only.

          No one has shown or claimed that _ómentie_ represents an "Old Quenya"
          form (with "Old" in the linguistic sense, i.e., as opposed to Middle or
          Modern). The idea that _ómentie_ may represent an _older_ (but still
          _linguistically Modern_) form of the _omentie_ is based solely on my
          supposition that a questionable word written by Tolkien reads "later".
          I've come to think that "like" (which Anders suggested and I also noted
          as possible) is the more probable reading.

          > According to the explanations given by Tolkien in "War of the Jewels",
          > if _omentie_ was in the past (Old Quenya) _ómentie_, then the Telerin
          > cognate word must have been _wómentie/vómentie_, but instead Tolkien
          > gave _womentie/vomentie_.

          Given that Q _o-_/_ó-_ and T _wo-_/_vo-_ are known to have arisen from
          a variably-lengthened element even in Common Eldarin, I fail to see how
          the Quenya presence or absence of lengthening (due to stress) of the
          prefix in _any_ form of Quenya can have any bearing on the Telerin
          reflex. Telerin may, in the course of its development, simply have
          selected the unlengthened (unstressed) form of the prefix for such
          word-patterns as _womentie_, while Quenya did not.

          Returning to the matter of the two attested forms _omentie_ (XI:367) /
          _ómentie_ (the Sotheby's letter under discussion), both vs.
          _omentielmo_, there are two types of variability we must deal with:
          internal (within Quenya), and external (Tolkien). Hypothesizing reasons
          for a difference between _ómentie_ but _omentielmo_ is not difficult,
          since the two words have different syllable patterns. Thus a purely
          internal variation seems quite sufficient. But for _omentie_ vs.
          _ómentie_, while we can somewhat more vaguely construct a purely
          internal hypothesis (basically, by simply appealing to the known
          variability of stress in prefixes and chalking it up to individual
          usage), we must also recognize that Tolkien was not always consistent
          in marking vowel length, even within the same documents. Thus, for
          instance, as I noted in my editorial notes on the _Ósanwe-kenta_
          (VT39), Tolkien wrote both _osanwe_ and _ósanwe_ in that essay.


          --
          =============================================
          Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

          ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
          Ars longa, vita brevis.
          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
          "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
          a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
        • Hans Georg Lundahl
          Ecrit M. Kloczko: My question is quite unrelated to the stress pattern itself, but to why/how? (?Old) Quenya _ómentie_ Quenya _omentie_. Well - how come
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 21, 2003
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            Ecrit M. Kloczko:

            "My question is quite unrelated to the stress pattern itself, but to "why/how?"
            (?Old) Quenya _ómentie_ > Quenya _omentie_."

            Well - how come Old Latin _mammilla_ becomes Latin _mamilla_? If you drum
            the rhythm with your finger tips on the table, or try to say the longer version
            quickly and repeatedly (as a loose approximation of real life repeated but
            dispersed use in quick talking tempo), you would get as good an idea thereof
            as by using the scientific terms allegro form. Goes both for Quenya and Latin
            examples, though long-long-short-short is more tolerable than long-long-short
            with stress on second long syllable. Remember [reemember > rymember]:
            language was a kind of MUSIC to the inveterate poet and metricist JRRT!

            Hans Georg Lundahl

            Gå före i kön och få din sajt värderad på nolltid med Yahoo! Express

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          • David Kiltz
            ... Indeed the Sindarin development may point to Telerin having dropped the lengthened form (while maintaining the distinction stressed/unstressed). The
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 21, 2003
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              On Freitag, März 21, 2003, at 02:35 Uhr, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

              > Given that Q _o-_/_ó-_ and T _wo-_/_vo-_ are known to have arisen from
              > a variably-lengthened element even in Common Eldarin, I fail to see how
              > the Quenya presence or absence of lengthening (due to stress) of the
              > prefix in _any_ form of Quenya can have any bearing on the Telerin
              > reflex. Telerin may, in the course of its development, simply have
              > selected the unlengthened (unstressed) form of the prefix for such
              > word-patterns as _womentie_, while Quenya did not.

              Indeed the Sindarin development may point to Telerin having dropped the
              lengthened form (while maintaining the distinction stressed/unstressed).
              The stressed form Sindarin _gwa-_ goes back to _wo_. I think we would
              expect _au_ < *_ó_.

              This is, of course, no proof, but it may be an indication.

              However, on XI:367 Tolkien writes "... prefix _vó, vo-_. Perhaps
              though, since the first isn't followed by a hyphen, it might be the
              form of a preposition, not a prefix.

              [That's how I read it, based on Tolkien's normal way of indicating such
              things. CFH]

              Couldn't it be that Tolkien simply wrote _ómentie_ in order to clarify
              the segments, knowing well that, as soon as the word was actually
              formed, the first _ó_ would be shortened?

              As for _ósanwe_. What if the second syllable isn't long ? Well, since
              we have seen that C+y forms position, at least in cases like _onye_
              etc. that doesn't really seem likely.

              Lastly, does word formation play a role? What if _omentie_ is: _omenta_
              > _omentie_ (i.e. an abstract derived from a verb) while _ósanwe_ is
              _ó_+_sanwe_ (i.e. a prefix + a noun).

              David Kiltz
            • Beregond. Anders Stenström
              ... It is satisfactory to see the general coincidence of our readings, and also of our conjectures as to the hidden words. Carl s conjecture understood in
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
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                Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                > . . . my supposition that a questionable word written by Tolkien
                > reads "later". I've come to think that "like" (which Anders suggested
                > and I also noted as possible) is the more probable reading.

                It is satisfactory to see the general coincidence of our readings,
                and also of our conjectures as to the hidden words.
                Carl's conjecture "understood" in line 6 indeed sounds more
                natural than my "unneeded".
                The word "like" looks clear to my eyes, even though I see no
                dot over the supposed "i" (I have made an enlarged scan from the
                photo in the catalogue). If my guess is right that it is followed by a
                citation of comparable classic prefixes (two of them, judging from
                the expected length of the hidden text), my suggestion "con-, syn-"
                is still only one in a range of similar readings: in WJ QE A *WO
                Sindarin:1 (WJ:367) Tolkien glossed S _gwa-_, _go-_ as "together,
                co-, com-", so "co-, com-" may have been what he wrote to Peter
                Alford as well.

                [Anders has an advantage over me, in that I was reading from the
                scan found on the Sotheby's web site. In further support of the
                reading "like", I can attest from long (and occasionally bitter!)
                experience that Tolkien very frequently does not dot his "i"s when
                writing with any haste. CFH]

                Meneg suilaid,

                Beregond
                [Anders Stenstr�m]
              • Edward J. Kloczko
                ... That is not how I interpret the text in WJ. The root in CE is written _WO_ with a short _o_. The usual lengthening of _o_ is presented as a development in
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
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                  Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                  > Given that Q _o-_/_ó-_ and T _wo-_/_vo-_ are known to have arisen from
                  > a variably-lengthened element even in Common Eldarin,

                  That is not how I interpret the text in WJ. The root in CE is written _WO_ with
                  a short _o_. The usual lengthening of _o_ is presented as a development in
                  the CE _word_ wô only; _wo-_ is stated to be a prefix, there is no CE prefix
                  _wô-_ apparently at that time, from my understanding.

                  The lengthening of prefix _wo-_ > _wô-_ looks to be quite a late development
                  (internal time) (?)in Beleriand just prior to the "voyage" to Aman(?).

                  > Thus, for
                  > instance, as I noted in my editorial notes on the _ósanwe-kenta_
                  > (VT39), Tolkien wrote both _osanwe_ and _ósanwe_ in that essay.

                  That is a strong argument for the coexistence of Q. _ómentie_ and
                  _omentie_ at the same internal time.

                  Edouard Kloczko
                • Edward J. Kloczko
                  ... _mammilla_ _mamilla_ shows the usual and well known Latin internal geminated consonant simplification after a long vowel, as _*seddolod_ _sedulo_; or
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
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                    Hans Georg Lundahl a écrit:

                    > Ecrit M. Kloczko:
                    >
                    > "My question is quite unrelated to the stress pattern itself, but to "why/how?"
                    > (?Old) Quenya _ómentie_ > Quenya _omentie_."
                    >
                    > Well - how come Old Latin _mammilla_ becomes Latin _mamilla_?

                    _mammilla_ > _mamilla_ shows the usual and well known Latin internal geminated
                    consonant simplification after a long vowel, as _*seddolod_ > _sedulo_; or
                    _*sed-cubo_ > _*seccubo_ > _secubo_, etc. This phenomenon goes as well for the
                    Germanic as you pointed out in your post but not in Ancient Greek.

                    In Quenya we are dealing with an initial long vowel shortening.

                    Edouard Kloczko
                  • Hans Georg Lundahl
                    ... Pas du tout. Not at all. The vowels in _mamilla_ are all short. Just like the vowels in primitive _mamma_ (which does not mean mother , but if I recall
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
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                      "Edward J. Kloczko" <ejk@...> wrote:

                      > _mammilla_ > _mamilla_ shows the usual and well known Latin internal geminated
                      > consonant simplification after a long vowel, as _*seddolod_ > _sedulo_; or
                      > _*sed-cubo_ > _*seccubo_ > _secubo_, etc. This phenomenon goes as well for the
                      > Germanic as you pointed out in your post but not in Ancient Greek.
                      >
                      > In Quenya we are dealing with an initial long vowel shortening.

                      Pas du tout. Not at all. The vowels in _mamilla_ are all short. Just like the vowels in
                      primitive _mamma_ (which does not mean 'mother', but if I recall correctly, 'female
                      breast' -- _mamilla_ means 'nipple'). The reason cannot therefore be any clash
                      between long vowel and long consonant. On _sedulo_ I pass. As for _secubo_ you
                      may be right or the composition may be later than the fall of d in _sed-_. But in
                      _mamilla_, we have a long syllable shortened precisely because it is pretonic --
                      not that this shortening is absolutly regular, rather it is sporadic (a Jung-grammarian
                      would say: often reversed by analogy). At least that is the account of _mammilla_ >
                      _mamilla_ given by the learned Stowasser, and you have not disproven it. Is the Greek
                      cognate -- if any -- a word in letter _eta_ (Ionic-Attic dialect group)?

                      If -- as is most probable -- the explanation of short first syllable in _mamilla_ is
                      rhythmic, the rhythmic feeling of mature Latin -- the relevance to Quenya, which
                      borrows nearly all of Latin prosody (not the muta cum liquida exception, nor the
                      accent on last syllable when followed by an enclitic word, but the rest), is obvious
                      -- except that more learned eldalambengolmor than myself are saying that the
                      root of that prefix was originally short. But even then: a reason for shortening in
                      one language may be a reason for not lengthening in another.

                      Hans Georg Lundahl

                      Gå före i kön och få din sajt värderad på nolltid med Yahoo! Express

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                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                      ... Edouard is correct that the root *WO (XI:367; no CE prefix form *_wo-_ is actually cited there) underlying the Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_ is not stated in
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 22, 2003
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                        On Saturday, March 22, 2003, at 09:46 AM, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

                        > Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                        >
                        >> Given that Q _o-_/_ó-_ and T _wo-_/_vo-_ are known to have arisen
                        >> from a variably-lengthened element even in Common Eldarin,
                        >
                        > That is not how I interpret the text in WJ. The root in CE is written
                        > _WO_ with a short _o_. The usual lengthening of _o_ is presented as a
                        > development in the CE _word_ wô only; _wo-_ is stated to be a prefix,
                        > there is no CE prefix _wô-_ apparently at that time, from my
                        > understanding.

                        Edouard is correct that the root *WO (XI:367; no CE prefix form *_wo-_
                        is actually cited there) underlying the Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_ is
                        not stated in _Quendi and Eldar_ to have been variably lengthened.
                        However, its CE reflexes, the independent and length- (and perhaps
                        stress-) contrastive words *_wô_ and *_wo_ [? stands for macron], are
                        cited as a pair elsewhere in _Q&E_ (XI:366). We are also told (367)
                        that *WO "does not remain in Q as an independent word", but is "a
                        frequent prefix in the form _ó-_ (usually reduced to _o-_ when
                        unstressed)". Taken together, this suggests that the Quenya prefix _ó-_
                        is _in origin_ a reflex of the CE independent word *_wô_, and that its
                        shortened counterpart _o-_ is _in origin_ a reflex of CE *_wo_ (though
                        with much subsequent leveling of forms in Quenya due to stress
                        patterns).

                        As further support for this, note that the _Etymologies_ tells us that:
                        "In Q the form _wô_, and the unstressed _wo_ [there is a breve in the
                        text], combined to produce prefix [_o-_ / _ô-_] 'together'" (V:399 s.v.
                        WÔ-).

                        It does appear, then, that a length- (and stress-?) contrastive pair of
                        CE words *_wô_, *_wo_ underlies the variably lengthened and stressed
                        Quenya prefix _ó-_ / _o-_.

                        --
                        =========================================================================================Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                        ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                        Ars longa, vita brevis.
                        The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                        "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                        a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
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