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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Possible ON -r derivation?

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  • David Kiltz
    ... I know. I wasn t criticizing. I just wanted to hook on to it. ... That is a severe counter-argument. One would then have to resort to other explanations.
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 16, 2003
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      On Sonntag, März 16, 2003, at 07:39 Uhr, Patrick Wynne commented:

      >> If I read it correctly, _ndakro_ is given as a ON form (just as
      >> _ndagno_ "slain").
      >
      > [Absolutely -- this is not a contested point. I merely wished
      > to make it clear that the reading was not _**ndakra_ or
      > _**ndakro-_. -- PHW]

      I know. I wasn't criticizing. I just wanted to hook on to it.

      >> ON already shows the transition PQ _â_ > _ô_ as exemplified by
      >> *_ndâkô_ > ON _ndóko_ in the same entry. This allows us to
      >> retrace the form to either PQ *_ndakrô_ or _ndakrâ_.
      >
      > [Not necessarily. Original long final _*-â_ usually yields _-a_ in ON,
      > There is one certain example of an ON form with _-o_ < _*-â_
      > -- _batthô'-_ 'trample' < _*battâ'-_ (V:351-2) -- but this is set
      > against a majority of forms in which PQ _*-â_ > ON _-a_. -- PHW]

      That is a severe counter-argument. One would then have to resort to
      other explanations. _Ndagno_ could, perhaps, be also seen as deriving
      from *_ndaknâ_ . Maybe Tolkien changed the outcome of PQ *_-â_
      just in this entry or maybe an original PQ *_-ra_ was later strengthened
      (in, say, a Proto-Telerin phase). I have to admit, this doesn't look too
      good. But who knows. Still, I would think that the parallel to the
      Germanic forms isn't entirely fortuitous.

      David Kiltz

      [It seems likely to me that ON _ndagno_ 'slain (as noun), corpse'
      was formed from an ON participle _*ndagna_ 'slain', with the
      addition of the suffix _-o_ serving to make the participle into
      a noun. This same process appears in Quenya forms in the
      _Etymologies_, e.g. adj. _vanima_ 'fair' > nouns _Vanimo_ pl.
      _Vanimor_ 'the beautiful' (children of the Valar), _Úvanimor_
      'monster' (V:351). Attested examples of the ON participial or
      adjectival ending _-na_ include _etlenna_ 'exiled' (< _etledie_
      'go abroad, go into exile', V:368), _muina_ 'familiar, dear'
      < MOY- (V:374), and _ragna_ 'crooked' < RAG- (V:382) -- PHW]
    • Boris Shapiro
      Aiya! We ve recently discussed the question of ON _ndakro_ slaughter, and a possible unknown _-ro_ non-agentive derivation. I have one more example to add: N
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 5 10:23 PM
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        Aiya!

        We've recently discussed the question of ON _ndakro_ "slaughter, and a
        possible unknown _-ro_ non-agentive derivation. I have one more
        example to add: N _lhathron_ "hearer, listener, eavesdropper" (<
        *la(n)sro-ndo); _lhathro_ or _lhathrado_ "listen in, eavesdrop". The
        etymology N _lhathron_ < _la(n)sro-ndo_ is interesting. Here we have
        _-ro_, which is obviously not agentive (because an agentive ending
        _-ndo_ present). Supposing that it is the same _-ro_ derivative
        element as in ON _ndakro_, we are left with two possibilities
        (excluding the theory of personification):

        1) _la(n)sro_ and _ndakro_ are abstract nouns.
        2) _la(n)sro_ and _ndakro_ are verbs.

        What do you think about it?

        Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo [Boris Shapiro]

        : sii man i yulma nin enquantuva? :
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... I don t find that obvious. It is not at all unheard of to have double suffixes in languages; for example, the English word children is a double plural
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 6 6:56 AM
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          On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 01:23 AM, Boris Shapiro wrote:

          > N _lhathron_ "hearer, listener, eavesdropper" (< *la(n)sro-ndo);
          > _lhathro_ or _lhathrado_ "listen in, eavesdrop". The etymology N
          > _lhathron_ < _la(n)sro-ndo_ is interesting. Here we have _-ro_, which
          > is obviously not agentive (because an agentive ending _-ndo_ present).

          I don't find that obvious. It is not at all unheard of to have "double"
          suffixes in languages; for example, the English word "children" is a
          double plural (_childr-_ being from the original plural form). It
          appears that in Noldorin original agentives in _-ro_ were strengthened
          with the addition of _-ndo_ (note that this strengthening would have
          the salutary effect of maintaining an agentive marker against the N.
          loss of final syllables).



          --
          =============================================
          Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

          ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
          Ars longa, vita brevis.
          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
          "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
          a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
        • Boris Shapiro
          Aiya! ... CFH I don t find that obvious. It is not at all unheard of to have double CFH suffixes in languages; ... Yes, you re right. I should have
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 6 8:48 PM
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            Aiya!

            Sunday, April 6, 2003, 5:56:18 PM, Carl F . Hostetter wrote:

            >> Here we have _-ro_, which is obviously not agentive (because an agentive
            >> ending _-ndo_ present). ...

            CFH> I don't find that obvious. It is not at all unheard of to have "double"
            CFH> suffixes in languages; ...


            Yes, you're right. I should have remembered cases like N _badhron_
            (_*badro-ndo_) etc.


            Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo [Boris Shapiro]


            : nai ilqua eruanna i nee antanin terlinnuva sen · nai erye vartuva :
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